Farage has stared into the abyss..........

Discussion in 'Bulletin Board' started by orsenkaht, Jan 11, 2018.

  1. Skryptic

    Skryptic Well-Known Member

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    In the same fashion can we please have somebody spell out what "remain" actually means? Given the EU now looks nothing like the EEC from the 70s, and the stated aim is "ever closer union", remaining is just as much a mystery as Brexit.
     
  2. tosh

    tosh Well-Known Member

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    Depends upon the rules in play. The government never did say what majority it required for the result to be mandatory in fact if anything they intimated it was only advisory. In our club for instance we have a simple majority requirement for simple choices and a 75% majority for more serious decisions. Good leadership would have made this clearer.
     
  3. Exi

    Exile Well-Known Member

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    This 'ere abyss that Nige is staring into - would someone mind just giving him a little nudge and pushing him over the edge into it. Ta.
     
  4. sadbrewer

    sadbrewer Well-Known Member

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    Cameron was crystal clear that the Govt. would accept the majority view and act on that decision....no ifs no buts.
     
  5. troff

    troff Well-Known Member

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    Democratic? What about the fact that the leave vote was won on lies, propaganda - and probably a nice slice of good old fashioned bigotry and xenophobia? Don’t get me wrong, I accept that a lot of folk will have had genuine and informed reasons to vote leave. But a bloody lot more of them didn’t. We can see that a good proportion believed blatant lies - or mistakenly thought voting out would send ‘all these foreigners home’. Bloody shameful. I may be wrong - we will never know - but if the electorate had actually been accurately and fully informed, this would not be happening. Instead we got a leave campaign of lies - and an even worse remain campaign of misplaced overconfidence and apathy in the assumption they’d win. It’s the major parties who wanted to stay I blame. Gross negligence.

    Would it not be more democratic to have a vote with both sides at least telling a morsel of truth? To vote for what would actually happen rather than an idealised utopia of an 1800’s all conquering British empire?

    Leaving the eu? Cracking idea. We will save £350mil a week. But we won’t. Well - actually save any significant money at all - but we won’t. It’ll cost a ******* fortune we haven’t got to leave, meanwhile hospitals are bursting at the seams, the streets are rife as there’s no police, and the state run schools are going to the dogs.

    Good call.

    Folk still tell me there will be long term benefits. Who for? Eroded workers rights, no proper investment in northern areas, no shackles on right wing government to stop them making the working man even poorer. Major companies with U.K. bases relocating to Ireland, Luxembourg. Financial hubs moving from London and Leeds to Frankfurt.

    The turkeys voted for Christmas in these parts, the truth is coming out slowly and painfully yet some still don’t see it. We’ve got our country back... are you sure?

    Not one person voted for what is currently happening - ‘hard brexit’ - I don’t recall that being on the slip. The consequences of voting out were not even discussed, never mind put into public domain.

    Had the voting slip said ‘remain - and stay as we are and that’s an end to it other than a moan about sending money to Brussels now and again; or leave, and have years of ******* about and arguing, a cost of billions in advance and Christ knows what in the future, no eu investment in our poorer areas, like where we live, so we become reliant on central government (or fight with Leeds and Sheffield etc for devolved funding), no guarantee of any future trades, a drastic dip in the value of the pound whilst prices increase, that lovely person farage walking round even smugger than before, and everybody hating the new prime minister ThatcherLite that much they can’t wait for boris ******* Johnson to take over’.

    Landslide... obviously I jest (mainly) but can someone point out the benefits of leaving please? Short medium or long term. Genuinely asking, I’m sure there are some reasoned arguments somewhere.

    Oh and to be clear on my feelings re a second referendum: the vote was a joke, a disgrace, we should never have had it, the decision shouldn’t have been sent to an ill informed of the consequences electorate.

    But it’s done, I don’t like it, I think it’s a growing disaster. But as I say it’s done. We shouldn’t and can’t do it again. Get on with it and let’s try and recover. However long it takes.
     
  6. Jimmy viz

    Jimmy viz Well-Known Member

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    Cameron had no authority to do that though under our system of Govt. not that I think there should be a rerun.

    We will end up leaving being Norway and that will amuse me.
     
  7. pin

    pingiskola Well-Known Member

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    so you voted for something you knew nothing about ?????
     
  8. Red

    Red Mosquito Well-Known Member

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    Well and humorously put.

    You are forgetting one of the main benefits that a lot of the 'brexiteers' believed in and voted for. All the Johnny foreigners were gonna be rounded up and shipped back 'home' the day after the vote. I exaggerate off course, but that was just another untruth that was allowed to propagate and grow during the lead up to the election and never quashed by the inept 'remoan' campaigners.
     
  9. Sco

    Scoff Well-Known Member

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    Pure demographics would reduce the leave margin by a significant amount (two winters with the majority of deaths being old, mainly leave voters - polls showed the grey vote was mainly Leave) and two extra years worth of young mostly remain voters who have now seen that their votes can make a difference in the general election. That is before we go into the disenfranchised voters, such as the 3 million or so tax-paying EU citizens (and long-term UK citizens in the EU) that were denied a vote in something that would significantly affect their futures.

    What a lot of the older people don't understand is that there is more in common between the young people of Barnsley and the young people of Katowice, Leon or the Jiu Valley (all current or former coal mining areas of the EU) then there is between them and their parents.This is much more pronounced when it gets to their grandparents. The kids live in a global world, with Facebook, Twitter, et al and generational homogeneity is increasingly important. The Internet is king for them, and the influence of the blatantly dishonest media in this country is dying out.
     
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  10. Sco

    Scoff Well-Known Member

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    The most ironic thing about this is that the result of their vote was to reduce the rights of UK citizens while giving the children of the EU immigrants they objected to (ignoring those who wanted to stop an end to Muslim immigration) more rights than their own children will have. Kids of EU citizens will be able to live and work in 28 countries while kids of UK citizens can work in 1.
     
  11. troff

    troff Well-Known Member

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    I agree red mosquito, but I didn’t forget. We will put it down to the length of my late night rant that you missed I’d said it!

     
  12. Ian

    Ian Member

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    The election campaign was littered with half truths and each party trying to discredit the other rather than providing the nation with actual evidence.

    I accept there are floors in the leave decision but equally it’s not exactly been the economic crisis & end of world most remainers predicted.

    I’m young enough to come through a bad exit deal & still feel that governing our own country & own laws has to be enforced fully to make leave worthwhile.

    I knew as much as the next person during the time of the vote where you anymore in the know at that time?
     
  13. wak

    wakeyred Well-Known Member

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    Maybe he can table a motion in Parliament, oh wait.
     
  14. troff

    troff Well-Known Member

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    My grandad voted leave. Spouted all sorts of crap as to why he was right in the lead up to the vote.

    The very next morning when Farage was on tv regarding the victory and immediately backed away from the £350milliion, he realised all wasn’t as he’d hoped.

    When Tresemme took over as PM and confirmed that talks would include discussion on the rights of migrant workers, (and so they aren’t all ‘going home’), he realised further. As time went on he criticised the mess which had been created, as though he hadn’t contributed to it.

    I had plenty of political discussion with my grandad over the years. He was somewhat bizarre in that he was staunchly labour, but bought and believed The Sun every day. He never accepted that The Sun was fundamentally right wing Tory biased ‘because it’s for normal folk’ and ‘they backed Blair’, he was convinced they’d back labour again soon.

    After the Brexit vote I wondered what he had hoped to gain by voting to leave at his stage in life; he brought this point up himself (I wasn’t ever one to be as disrespectful as to ask something like that) so I then asked whether he thought that the older generation voting against the overall wishes of the younger was right - given that inevitably it will be the younger ones, who mainly didn’t want it, that will face the aftermath. He said basically that he was wanting Britain to be a global force like the old empire days; he essentially voted for the past, but accepted that it was a grave error as that can and will never happen as the rest of the world caught up, and that as a result of his rose tinted view he and his generation had changed the futures of his grandkids and great grandkids; that it wasn’t necessarily a bad thing (we didn’t agree there, my kids future choices have been massively narrowed in my view, possibly even their prospects), but that it shouldn’t have been decided by them.

    I think it’s a generational thing but the older ones all seem to be more of the little englander mentality. I wouldn’t mind but his best friend in the world, sort of an idolised hero, was his brother in law, the man who married his baby sister. Who was a Polish migrant, a Protestant Christian who was erroneously labelled a Jew in the war; and who got himself, his sister and mother across Europe and into Britain in the 1940’s when he was no more than a child. Uncle Aleks died several years ago, I can’t help but think had he been around there would have been in depth discussion between them and his opinion markedly different.

    We lost my grandad in October. But had there been a second referendum prior to that, I’ve a good feeling he, even at 86 would have changed his mind.

    I’m not sure many of the older generation would, but still.

    It may sound cruel but it has to be pointed out that the studies have shown that there was a large proportion of exit voters over 65, whom with protected pensions and obviously less life left to live will be affected least of anybody; and also of the ones who voted out of working age, many were in low pay jobs or serially unemployed, of low educational standard, and so perhaps unaware of what they were actually voting for - whilst the majority with more formal qualifications and educational standards, voted to stay.

    I’m coming across as bitter, and as I say I accept there will be some reasoned arguments to leave, but it seems to me that the larger proportion of those who voted out were hugely misinformed and/or ignorant of the facts.
     
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  15. Red

    Red Mosquito Well-Known Member

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    Soz, missed it
     
  16. upt

    upthecolliers Well-Known Member

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    That might not be as far feched as you think he's got plenty of rabid right wing nutters in the Tory party that agree with every racist word he says.
     
  17. Carlycu5tard

    Carlycu5tard Well-Known Member

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    Aye - We should have lots of referendum that'd improve our standing onthe world stage.

     
  18. North Yorks Red

    North Yorks Red Well-Known Member

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    You mean as opposed to all the 'facts' available about what staying in meant ( including all the fear factor type stuff put out there)? Given that the EU doesn't seem to know what it is/wants and seems to be built on constantly moving foundations.
    I actually voted to stay but don't get all this about a second referendum based on 'lies'. FFS its called being a democracy, based on the rules at the time folk voted to leave so get on with it!!
    If we bring new rules in like that does that mean after every general election, when the winning party announces its policies that aren't based on its manifesto do we get the chance to say hang on I didn't want that so lets have another go?
     
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  19. troff

    troff Well-Known Member

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    Did you read all my post?

    I think you’ll find i criticised both campaigns. The remain campaign was even worse, in that they didn’t even really try; had remain won, similar arguments about lies would likely have been made by advocates of leave. The point is a good proportion of those who voted leave did so based on lies or in ignorance: I never suggested that remain voters were all better informed. The vote should never have happened; or at least a bit of truth either side should have been given. Cameron allowed the country to go to ballot on such a massive issue in almost total ignorance because it suited his political agenda to agree to it, and he was too arrogant to see he might not win to bother doing it properly.

    And as for your last point re general elections - the winning party are held to account by a further election, within the following five years, often sooner.

    People can and do change their minds - and new people who were previously ineligible to vote get their say too. We get to vote to change our minds, vote to change the future. The losing party can tweak their ideas and become more appealing, change personnel.

    The Brexit vote though is deemed as forever - and yet apparently it would be undemocratic to have another vote now, even if after seeing the consequences some have changed their minds, and the kids of 16/17 at the time could now have their say. I find it a little laughable to suggest another vote would be undemocratic.

    I don’t actually think we should have another - I used the same words as you, get on with it. But I’m not so sure Farage is right when he says they’d get a bigger majority. Though I never thought leave would win anyway so what do I know - plus now the likes of Juncker have had more airtime and the less interested of the public have borne witness to some of this, perhaps they would want to stick to leaving.

    Either way I suggest we will never know.
     
  20. Marlon

    Marlon Well-Known Member

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    I tho
    I thought my vote stood in the seventies.
    The important thing is making sure it’s the right decision not how many times we change our minds
     

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