The Academy

Discussion in 'Bulletin Board' started by Red Rain, Jan 20, 2018.

  1. Red

    Red Rain Well-Known Member

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    To be honest, the new owners have confused me. In their press conference, the phrase that was repeated over and over was, "We aren't going to do anything crazy". I took that to mean that they would carry on as before, but I could not see how carrying on as before got them a return on their investment. I understood why Mr Cryne was prepared to go forward with no return on his investment, but I did not understand why a group of individuals from the four corners of the world, with no commitment to either Barnsley or its football club might be willing to do the same. I was also concerned that they did not seem too interested in acquiring the land a buildings. I think that I understand what drives business, and I believe is is the urge to make money. To make money, they must do things differently, and they must do things better. From their comments at that press conference, they seemed to just be dipping a toe in the water. There were no new ideas, no radical plans. Just the insistence that they will not do anything crazy. It worried me, but I decided to park my worries and wait patiently until I saw some activity. I am still waiting, patiently.
     
  2. orsenkaht

    orsenkaht Well-Known Member

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    Another way of looking at it is that maybe they believe that the basic model we have is the right one, and will succeed with just a little more financial support - as much in so far as it enables us to retain the better players who come through, as opposed to big-scale purchases? It is after all the system that produced Hourihane, Mawson, Roberts, Scowen and Watkins. And that team wasn't far short of being playoff challengers.
     
  3. Red

    Red Rain Well-Known Member

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    None of the players that you mention came through the academy, so I will take it that you are making a general point about the running of the club.

    I am not sure that any of those players would have stayed at Barnsley, even if we had been able to match their salary demands. Players look for stepping stones on their path to the top of their profession. In Hourihane's example, he would see Plymouth as out of the loop, it is so far from anywhere else. Barnsley would have got him noticed again, plus Barnsley has a good reputation for developing players and moving them on. It is another stepping stone. When Villa come in for him, he would see Villa as a major move. They are a Premiership side in waiting. They were just what he wanted, hence he went and saw Patrick Cryne and asked that he be allowed to go. They represented a golden future. Would he have stayed even if we had matched his salary? I doubt it. But if we had matched his salary, and there is nothing in what has been said so far to suggest the new owners would do so, what effect would that have had on our profitability, assuming Hourihane did not get us promoted. Well, by most accounts, he is being paid £1m per year more than we were paying. So on the face of things, the new owners are losing £1m more than Mr Cryne. But that is not the end of it, is it. By paying Hourihane, the new owners signal that they can be held to ransom by players. They signal that it is open season for the rest of them. How does that fit with the mantra about not doing anything crazy.

    As I said, after the press conference, I do not understand the new owners. I am waiting to see what their actions are so that I can judge with better evidence.
     
  4. Terry Nutkins

    Terry Nutkins Well-Known Member

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    But (and it is a very big but) you are falling into the trap of making huge assumptions, which you tend to do quite a lot, but package in a way which intends to make everyone feel like you know exactly what is happening down at Oakwell.

    In all honesty, nobody on here does. You could read, 'not going to go crazy' as we are not going to go down the route of Wolves or what QPR did a few years ago, or you could think he meant they aren't going to go off the track Patrick has taken us on, or somewhere in between.

    We don't know, we might get more of a feel for what it will look like in the summer but again it is all conjecture.

    I have moved between the two trains of thought that we are going to spend a little or we might go out and buy 4, £2-3m players in the summer. I've purposely stopped doing it, because it's a pointless exercise. It will all work itself out in the long run one way or the other and it will become apparent what path we take.

    I stopped making assumptions a long time ago, especially for all things BFC.
     
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  5. Con

    Conan Troutman Well-Known Member

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    Shurrup.
     
  6. bright red

    bright red Well-Known Member

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    Have to laugh at Hemsworth. Talks about people bitching and then uses his post to have (yet another) go at one of his non preferred BFC folk.
     
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  7. Red

    Red Rain Well-Known Member

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    OK, lets get this straight right away. I know nothing about what is going on at Oakwell other than what is already in the public domain. I come on here ans state my understanding and sometimes my theories, but in actual fact, I know nothing. I like to talk football, but I do not like it when it gets personal. I am quite happy to debate my ideas, just so long as it is the ideas that are being debated and not me. I agree that it is all conjecture, but what else have we got, other than debating conjecture.
     
  8. Hem

    Hemsworth Tyke Well-Known Member

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    Non preferred. I don't get caught up in the red tinted view that others do that's all. I treat them all the same. I see the academy.

    Strangely enough I've just been reading the stones interview that he did in September . He talks about the youth system in Ronnie and Mark then Keith hill and Roberto Southgate then Hobson before pep.

    He mentions he got the building blocks at 13/14 and was told to play good football. I've seen the group pass the ball 50 times before scoring a tap in back post Danny Rose.

    Do we see that today. The u18s play awful football. The u23s play awful football and the first team under Paul Heckingbottom play awful football.

    Stones would have hated playing under this system.
     
  9. Terry Nutkins

    Terry Nutkins Well-Known Member

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    But Red Rain, you make so many sweeping assumptions in a way that it looks from the outside, that you know the way people are going about their business behind closed doors. You never use words like ‘my opinion is...’, ‘I feel that’ etc.

    You instead choose to use terminology like ‘I think I know what drives the business...’ and ‘I’m concerned that they did not seem too interested in acquiring the land and buildings’.

    How do you know any of that? What is said on public record isn’t always the full detail. I took what they said as, ‘let’s cross that bridge when we come to it, we want to own the stadium but at this point that part of the deal isn’t concluded’. It could be for a myriad of reasons, from the deal the council want, if Patrick wants to sell it, or maybe the deal is too good at the moment to warrant buying it. But I don’t know, and neither do you.
     
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  10. bright red

    bright red Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate your position RR. I think that what you are asking for is impossible to achieve on a forum such as this. We generally don’t know each other and therefore all we have to go on are the words people post. It’s probably only in an academic setting that ideas get debated in an entirely rational way. Even then I’m not sure about that. When I read anyone’s posts I can’t help but think what type of person would post such a stupid/brilliant/funny/sad thing. I build up a picture of this imaginary poster and it affects the way I read subsequent posts. I guess we all do the same. By its very nature the picture will be very limited.
    Certainly this place has more than a few people ready to jump to conclusions and be personally aggressive. Can’t let that affect you and it’s actually no where near as bad as it used to be!!
     
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  11. Red

    Red Rain Well-Known Member

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    I have just re-read your previous post. It does not contain the words, "in my opinion". You cannot get at me for not using that phrase when you did not use that phrase. That is not to say that I think that you should have used that phrase, or indeed that I should have. You should note that my stuff is really long, and that I go into a great deal of detail about the evidence for my opinion. If I started every sentence with the phrase, in my opinion, my stuff would be even longer and I do not think either of us wants that, do we.

    It appears that you are not even satisfied with the phrase, "I think", instead of the phrase, "in my opinion", even though both phrases seem to have the same meaning. Why can you just not concentrate on what I say rather than the way I say it. As I said, why not debate the ideas, rather than the person.
     
  12. Terry Nutkins

    Terry Nutkins Well-Known Member

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    Those words and terms are examples RR.

    I don’t need to write ‘my opinion’ because I’m stating varying options. I’m not saying it is one way or another.

    You have chosen to ignore the glaring terms I gave as examples about the buildings and stadium and the ‘I know how what drives the business’ remark.

    I’m happy to debate with anyone, and this is not meant to be a personal attack on you. I’ve not purposely gone out of my way to have an argument with you, it’s far from it in fact. I’m just giving my opinion which obviously differs from yours greatly.

    But, I will debate where I think you are wrong, and why. If, like you do put an argument across in a certain way then, by proxy you are going to be subjected to questioning about your thought process. I’m questioning your thought not your person.
     
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  13. Red

    Red Rain Well-Known Member

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    What is the point of a forum if it drives away reasoned debate. I certainly do not want to be part of anything that does not have reason at its heart. According to my forum stats, I have been part of this forum since 2005, but I have just 2800 postings. I just do not join in a thread when I feel I have nothing to contribute. I certainly do not join in when an individual is being ganged up on. I am interested in Barnsley FC and enjoy debating ideas, both mine and other people's I hope to continue to contribute ideas and topics that interest other people. I have a specific skill set because of the job I did which helps in some areas, but I will not make a debate personal. If I stop contributing to the BBS, you will know that it is because the debates are no longer fun. They just got too personal.
     
  14. Mrs

    MrsHallsToffeerolls Well-Known Member

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    Its not that cold or raining get thissen for a walk.
     
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  15. Red

    Red Rain Well-Known Member

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    Right from the start of this debate, I tried to set out that what I was saying was just a thought process. Some extended ideas that I wanted to get opinions on. If you do not believe me, go back and read my opening remarks once more. The fact is, it was taken in a different direction than I intended by the contributions of others. I come on here just to talk football.
     
  16. DEETEE

    DEETEE Well-Known Member

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    You must watch different games to me.

    Last two i went to were decent even with the conditions.

    The issue isnt the coaching the issue is something thats synonymous with the playing staff through out the club.

    Distinct lack of on the pitch leadership.
     
  17. Tyk

    Tyketical Masterstroke Well-Known Member

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    He's just trying to help you out, you should consider taking on board the advice.

    Whether it's intended or not - and I know you like to think that everything you write is grounded purely in logic and non-personal arguments - your writing style has a patronising and condescending edge to it which I can't help but think makes people often react to some of your points in a certain way.
     
  18. Hem

    Hemsworth Tyke Well-Known Member

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    Which games were they? The amount of first-team players in some games can cover up the problems.
     
  19. JamDrop

    JamDrop Well-Known Member

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    But Red Rain, Terry is correct. You do jump to conclusions and they have a very detrimental effect on your debates. It’s really something you should consider working on if you are as interested in debates as you seem to be. As it is, it makes your arguments much weaker than they have the potential to be. Holes in your logic begin to appear immediately as a result of relying on a conclusion which may be flawed.


    A quote from a book by my favourite author: ‘When you spring to an idea, and decide it is truth, without evidence, you blind yourself to other possibilities.'
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
  20. wak

    wakeyred Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, I think that making the academy Tier 1, which would be my wish, would require spending on expert coaches as well.
     

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