Brexit confusion - Scottish fishermen

Brexit voting was largely about free movement, so i can understand why she prioritised that. I agree that we will be "vassal state", as the Brexiteers have rightly stated. It is loosely reflective of a 52 / 48 result. No one happy.

I agree with you about free movement, as opposed to migration, although our border services have been as woefully funded as our police service, so it is fair to say border controls are fairly worthless, other than for stopping criminals & drugs entering the country & even then, with limited success. There is a world recession on the way & we are heading for a disaster of our own making. Anyone who can't see it is not looking at how the modern world works.

I agree Blair should not have agreed to the new eastern European countries being granted free movement. It has been bad for them, in that many of their best young people have come over here & yes that has undermined wages, but so has tax credits to a large extent & the Iraq war destabilising the middle east.

Let's have a well written & universally agreed final referendum & everyone stick with it. That is democratic.

 

I really don't want to joust with you over this as you would tie me in knots but I think May is trying to stick to stopping free movement of people and keep it simple for the brexiteers to agree with because this very policy won the vote . I went out for a curry tonight with my wife , daughter and mother in law and we got talking of Brexit , me , my Mrs and daughter are all remainers but not the MOL , I asked her if she would change her vote if she new then what she knows now, she said an enphatic 'No ' I voted to keep 'em out ' and that's it . I despair .

 

....and this is the crux of the matter I'm afraid to say. Now I don't know you, your family, but this is oh so familiar - the whole brexit issue has been dominated by the silent majority of older Brits, who, I fear, have racist tendencies,borne out of nothing but a lack of education/fear of someone being different than themselves. It really does make me despair at times

 

Well the majority who vote different to you (if you are in the minority) will always make you despair.

It's the assumption that your apparently superior intelligence should trump theirs that makes me despair.

 

Mays obsessions is down to the political elite (on all sides of the house) assuming that immigration was the be all and end all of the 17.5 million who voted leave.

Lets say that this is the case....well i doubt very much that these 17.5 million will trust her or the eu on immigration (i honestly believe the eu are assuming the same as our political elite and thats why the agreement was done and dusted inside a hour) so , for me, i think this lot are barking up the wrong tree and if they do manage to force a second referendum then i think they'll wind up with egg on their fizogs,, I also think that the eu are using us and immigration to try and stop the rise of eurosceptics throughout europe particularly the czech rep,poland,hungary and slovakia who are refusing to accept the immigration quota that the eu is trying to impose on them.

I voted leave and in my case immigration was not a factor,I voted leave because i see the eu as undemocratic,a whole range of European leaders have made abundantly clear the EU’s political agenda, such as Jean Monnet:who said the following -
“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the super-state without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation”

And Jean-Claude Juncker: “There can be no democratic choice against the European Treaties”.,he said this in 2015 after the greek population voted in a anti austerity party , whether or not the greeks are responsible for their own mess is not the point here,the point is the eu has ultimate power which i think is wrong

in the 1975 vote there were accusations from people who were against the common market,accusations that said the eu's ultimate goal was a eu political union and superstate,the people who said this were on the receiving end of the same type of tripe that todays eurosceptics receive,ie its all scaremongering etc... well we now have the political union so who was lying?

one final point i'd like to make is that on this forum we have a lot of labour / corbyn supporters, just remember corbyn is intent on the renationalisation of the railways , some utilities and the post,EU laws on state aid and competition laws would make this very difficult,if not impossible.

immigration is not the sole reason that 17.5 million voted leave

 

dont believe everything you read,especially about leave voters

incidently,me fatha is nearly 80 and he voted remain

 

If the 'majority' vote differently to me, then, if they have a valid reason or logic to do so, then fine - they can debate their point. The point I was making that the poster's Mother in Law made a comment that was construed by me as to being a racist comment.

I don't assume to have superior intelligence, but I am certainly not against anyone who has a different culture/creed to me on the basis that we are of the same species.

I am also open to the fact that the demography of the country has indeed changed in the last couple of years. That alone to me suggests that result of the referendum should be re-visited. It's like saying Party A won the last General Election - they won. Get over it. No need for another GE

 

It's not what I've read - it's borne out of everyday life.

I do not put any faith in the MSM

 

If Cameron had come home from the EU with enough of an understandable ability by way of concession to block unlimited EU immigration, then we'd still be fully in.

After all the subsequent trouble caused by excess immigration on the continent (largely from elsewhere, but people don't distinguish), then I reckon Cameron would have, a year later, got out of the EU what he didn't the year before, so as to stop all this Brexit mess.

Immigration was the overwhelming reason why we voted leave. It's the easiest to understand.

The rest of it all was far too vague. So it seems reasonable to me to vote on what it now all might mean for us.

 

How many times do we vote to leave or stay in then?

I didn't realise it should be like a general election.

If we sign Lionel Messi tomorrow can we play Sunderland again?

You went on about racists and lack of education when it came to voting. Which is dangerous territory, unless you consider yourself superior to your one man one vote comrade.

My vote is no more important than my next door neighbour. Old, racist, uneducated though he may be (though he isn't, is Keith - he's a nice chap).

 

Why is it so different to a GE? - obviously the decision is/was marginal.

I don't know what right you, or I, for that matter, have to dictate to future generations.

When we sign Messi we can play him against Sunderland, next time round, not long til that is it? - certainly less than 2 years hence

I believe racism is nothing but a fundamental lack of education, what else can it be?

And yes one man one vote I concur although - I'm not getting your point

 

A very well constructed post. Thank you MDG.

We voted differently, and I fully respect your explanation as to why you voted leave.

I will say, though, that I don’t agree that the EU being unwilling to modernise was one of the main reasons the country voted out.

It clearly was for you - but talking to a great many people who voted either out or remain, I’m not sure that many of them knew exactly how the EU functioned or were that bothered - they just voted on the tv propaganda; on the leave side (which obviously given where I live there were more of) immigration, money paid out, immigration, and immigration.

On the remain side, a few daft enough to vote that way so they could still go to Benidorm and Magaluf, some appreciation of the role of the eu in bringing in funding and employment to our areas which central government would unlikely keep up, and a lot of fear. Some of it justified to be fair as the mess we are now in really ought to have been predicted by most. Piss ups and breweries etc.

What annoys me most isn’t that we are leaving the eu, it was voted for. Not my will but fair enough, I didn’t vote for a conservative government either.

It’s that they way it is being done is catastrophic, benefits nobody, and is pretty much what nobody whatsoever voted for in the referendum.

It is leaving for leaving’s sake, just to say that the ‘will of the people’ has been delivered. But with the amount of concessions being made for no benefit in return, I don’t see how the leave vote would have wanted any of this; and the remain vote (which let’s be honest wasn’t far short of half the vote) certainly didn’t. So this ‘deal’ is the will of nobody except a prime minister desperately clinging on to power she should never have been parachuted into.

I really don’t think the economic effect of leaving the eu - how much it will effect the lives of relatively low paid workers in the short to medium term, was properly considered before the vote and was certainly not given proper airtime, unlike nhs buses and Farage in the pub (he drinks pints of bitter, must be a stand-up proper trustworthy fella...). In fact the wider implications don’t seem to have had any influence at all on the vote, simply as a large proportion of the electorate had no idea what these might be or that there even were any implications long term.

I’m sure there are many leave voters such as yourself that made educated, considered decisions.

But there are a great many more, on both the leave and remain side, who voted for implausible reasons, who were not informed enough of the implications of voting either way.

The question was put to the people without the people being properly informed - and now the result is being abused to justify this, which is the worst case scenario for the majority who voted either way - and it seems there is little we can do to stop it other than hope the commons veto it. If our only hope is that, then we might be in luck.

As and when that happens though - what happens next?

It was a mistake to put it out to the people without fairly and accurately communicating the consequences.

It will be a bigger error to leave on these terms.

 

No they wouldn’t.

 

Very well put.

 

At the minute I see it a little bit like labour and conservatives are football teams trying to win the Brexit cup final.

Nobody knows what the brexit Cup looks like, as it’s never been seen.

Each team has some half decent players, but they don’t want to win the cup.. so try scoring own goals.

The rest of the players have never played football before, and are not sure of any of the rules.

The commentator is worried about ratings, so focuses on the bad football, but also asks each team’s super fan for their views.

There is no referee.

And us as fans, are unable to sit(or stand up) in the same stands, as some of us want to win, some of us don’t, and a lot have completely lost interest in the whole charade, and decided to go for a pie...

 

If you read the research into the exit polls, the leave majority was in the 50-75 age group. Above 75-80 (those old enough to remember the war and the immediate aftermath) it switched back to remain.

 

Agreed. I rage at my own mother, I’m quite sure she thought that all foreigners, blacks, Irish etc would have to leave the day after the vote. I got and get sick of trying to educate but there’s no listening and certainly no changing of minds.

 

A family member of mine said the other day. "I dont know why we are negotiating at all with Europe. We dont need to trade with them anyway. Just leave and shut the doors and dont let any more in"

 

Vetted like they were in Barnsley when few locals got in? They bussed Tory Councillors from miles around. I know a Labour Party member who has been trying for years to get on QT. The minute she lies and says she is a Tory Leaver she was accepted. The BBC are the Tory PR machine.