Sterling 2

Discussion in 'Bulletin Board' started by Scholesisgod, Dec 10, 2018.

  1. red

    redrum Well-Known Member

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    Got to agree I don't think they is any critising of thiam or cavare due to skin coulor on here cavare started really well but lately has been a liability thiam is hit and miss but offers more than some midfielders at the club imo.
    Another lad close to the top of the table who is mixed race is pinnock who has been one of the best performers this season imo and if he carrys on will be gone soon. Not sure why anyone would care about someone's skin coulor it's 2018 and the man who went for glory and got it to score probley the most famous goal in our history was a lad called Clint Marcelle.........
     
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  2. gri

    grimeypit Active Member

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    'So what you're saying is unconsciously EVERYBODY is racist?'

    Is what I was referring to.
     
  3. Xer

    Xerxes Well-Known Member

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    I don't go to away matches because of the drunken racist louts that are our away supporters. I have never witnessed any at Oakwell but I haven't sat in the Ponty or East Stands.
     
  4. Tek

    Tekkytyke Well-Known Member

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    My three penneth.... Part of the problem is that the definition of Racism is blurred. The boundaries of what is perceived as racist comment is partly generational. The sensibilities of the 'snowflake' generation have made it difficult for people who grew up in less 'sensitive' times to determine what is acceptable or not.

    Recently a comedian of ethnic origin was sent a long list of subjects by the student Union at the University he was booked at that he was not allowed to use in his material to which his response was to cancel his booking. The BBC has a book outlining strict guidelines to scriptwriters what they can and cannot use as material.

    Racism, to me at least, is where a comment or action is intentionally malicious or intended to cause offence and targets a certain person or persons due to race or skin colour. Now here is my problem. Too many people take offence who a) are not the target of any comments made and where the actual target is not offended.
    Nowadays you would say "I am off to the Chinese takeaway , What does everyone want?" A few years ago they might have said "I am off to the chinkie......' Many nowadays regard that as racist and offensive, but at the time.??? Some people even complain when other people are referred to as Yanks, Brits, Aussies, Taffs. Where do we draw the line?
    Another example is a colleague I worked with was disciplined for using a racist word which was overheard by someone who reported him. The point was the exchange was between two very good friends and colleagues, One Asian and one a devout Christian. They used to greet each other using racist terms (irony). The particular exchange took place in an environment where they did not expect to be overheard, and in fact the 3rd party should not have been in that location (a comms room). Strangely the witness only complained about the Christian and only he was disciplined. (written warning) and yet BOTH used racist terms.
     
  5. MarioKempes

    MarioKempes Well-Known Member

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    I get that. The inference from Rotherham Tyke was that it is rife on here so was rightly challenged for being an absurd accusation to make. Super Tyke used the word 'everybody' but while it may be a little misrepresentative is not exactly building a straw man argument when he was challenging somebody who said it was rife.
     
  6. Farnham_Red

    Farnham_Red Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    Just been reading this thread and have a couple of observations - I havent heard any racism where I sit in the West Stand for years, I have encountered it occasionally at away games - usually only at "big games" like Wembley and the Man City game when I think we get bonus fans attending

    I am sure there are some racist fans attend games but in general the majority are clearly not racist and see no problem in criticising players regardless of skin colour - Moncur and Davis get as much if not more criticism than Cavare and Thiam. I almost never hear any criticism of Pinnock though Lindsay gets some still and in fact Pinnock also won several official Man of the Match votes. Where I sit I hear abuse directed at opposition players fairly regularly especially if they seem to be diving or always in the referees face - not noticed any racial bias though to be fair I havent been looking for it but definitely the Pompley player who (deservedly) got the most criticism last week was white.
     
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  7. Sup

    SuperTyke Well-Known Member

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    And what he was saying was that racism is rife on here. So he made up ******** and I replied back with an equally ******** comment yet you ignore his lies and focus solely on my reply. Why's that?

    Let's just remember that he's deliberately and knowingly lied about racism at oakwell in this thread.
     
  8. Wilmersdorfer Winky

    Wilmersdorfer Winky Well-Known Member

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    I said unconscious racism is rife on here. I don't know how I'm supposed to prove that? Unconscious racism is rife throughout the country. Why would this place be any different?
     
  9. Wilmersdorfer Winky

    Wilmersdorfer Winky Well-Known Member

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    No I haven't, Norris. You disagree with me. That doesn't make me a liar.
     
  10. MarioKempes

    MarioKempes Well-Known Member

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    I know, I quoted you and said the same. I just think you're completely wrong and the supporting points I have posted do back me up. Criticism of Cavare and Thiam does not equate to unconscious racism, not when most of it is justified - it really is for you to back this up with evidence seeing as you're making the accusation.
     
  11. Wilmersdorfer Winky

    Wilmersdorfer Winky Well-Known Member

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    Again, I never said criticism of Cavare and Thiam equates to unconscious racism. I said, for the final time now, that Thiam and Cavare get more stick than others when they play poorly and less praise than others when played well. That they're treated differently. That's just my feeling, I can't prove that because it would be impossible without a proper in-depth analysis of all posts on here. I think my point is an acceptable one to make. I never accused any single person of being racist and I respect your right to disagree with it - especially because I can't prove it. All I can do is point out research which shows that unconscious racism is rife in many many aspects of British life and ask why you think it would be different on here?

    If you genuinely believe that black Barnsley players are treated in the same way as white Barnsley players then we'll have to agree to disagree.
     
  12. DEETEE

    DEETEE Well-Known Member

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    This unconscious racism thing.
    For clarity, is it just white people who suffer from this 'affliction' or is it something that affects other racial demographics..
     
  13. Wilmersdorfer Winky

    Wilmersdorfer Winky Well-Known Member

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    Other racial demographics too, of course.
     
  14. Dan

    DannyWilsonLovechild Well-Known Member

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    A few comments (both to comments above and generally to other points from others).

    Racism is a belief that ones race is superior to that of another race. It doesn't even have to be acted upon. You can be racist by thinking it, not just by abusing someone of a different race for being of that race. Obviously if someone doesn't express those views openly, you can't tell.

    The elephant in the room is there are large amounts of people who view anyone as non white and non British as a threat. Some even worse. I've seen it in Barnsley, I've seen it in Cornwall, I've seen it in the Cotswolds, I've seen it all over. The only way I believe people can get past that is exposure and education. And younger generations as outlined earlier are the way forward. Whenever I visit Barnsley now, I still rarely see anyone who isn't white. Which I find amazing living in South London where easily 25-30% of the local population are non white.

    Someone earlier commented about bias and asked is everyone inherently racist. It's an uncomfortable truth, but yes. We are. Many top businesses are trying to change thousands of years of human conditioned bias and prejudice through training. Some of the tests at the outset of such tests outline that unconscious bias.

    Historically, way before the modern world, primitive man made decisions to save villages and settlements from attack from strangers on visual clues. if someone looked different, they were attacked. Animals territorially attack other animals they don't recognise. It's a prewired aspect in our minds to instantly be wary of things we don't know and people we don't recognise.

    Of course, in most cases, that hardwired first thought is fleeting and instantly overridden by newer learned behavioural and social thinking.

    Theres lots of very interesting work going on to diversify businesses and change the outdated damaging views middle class white men have used to dominate and protect their environments from external unusual challenges, subconsciously or by design. Interesting times in the next decade.
     
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  15. Farnham_Red

    Farnham_Red Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    Whilst I think there is some truth in most of your post above I must take issue with the statemet that everyone is inherently racist. I dont agree and challenge you to provide concrete evidence of the fact

    I genuinely don't care what colour someones skin is but I would say I am a bit culturist - so I have absolutely no issue with someone with different colour skin that shares my general culture, I am less comfortable - though try not to be, where a significant culture difference applies.

    young children are generally not racist - I think racism is learned behaviour usually from fear of something that may be different
     
  16. Dan

    DannyWilsonLovechild Well-Known Member

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    I'm talking a split second unconscious bias that all people have that's been developed over thousands of years for pure self preservation. It's a very recent thing that so many cultures have been brought together, and in places like Barnsley, its still pretty rare. Maybe inherently racist isn't the right language. Inherently wary of someone who looks different to the norm with a slightly varying degree of fear... absolutely.

    There have been numerous tests and conditioned experiments. I'm by no means an expert, but I am exposed to some aspects of it because of what my wife does. People who wouldn't consider themselves racist at all who when choosing a seat on a bus just so happen to avoid the seat next to a black male.

    These people aren't racist necessarily, but there is something hardwired into the mind which influences choice. What many of these social experiments have found is once stereotypical prejudice is challenged and discussion allowed and welcomes, people start to see more similarities and breakdown the fear aspect, as you said. And completely agree with your last comment, I've said that myself numerous times.
     
  17. Tek

    Tekkytyke Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm!! Interesting discussion.

    So if someone was somehow parachuted into the middle of Somalia, would they be wary and suspicious of the local population because they were a different race and skin colour (racist?) or because the country is unstable and piracy and kidnapping is endemic ( self preservation and survival instinct kicking in.)
    I get what you are driving at since much prejudice comes from historical experience..warring regions dating back centuries and religious persecution of one population against another leading to deep seated inter-generational hatred (e.g. Serbs and Croats uneasy alliance held together briefly by Tito in the former Yugoslavia). Nevertheless, I still believe you are confusing a sensible pragmatic and genetically programmed wariness of strangers, especially when in an unfamiliar environment, with bias and prejudice i.e. racist tendencies.
    Surely, it would be totally naive to wander into an unfamiliar area e.g. parts of inner cities where gang culture is rife and assume that everyone you talk to is harmless. That is not racism it is merely common sense.
    Regarding "Animals territorially attack other animals they don't recognise" In most instances most animals e.g. particularly cats, are always initially wary and avoid strangers/other animals until they know they mean no harm and, as far as I am aware, are not in the least bit racist. Most animals avoid direct fights as injury often means slow painful death. Most confrontation in any case is merely claiming territorial rights for hunting grounds or food supply.
    Assuming we as human beings are shaped by our environment, is it unreasonable to initially be more wary of people from certain regions who have only known war, brutality and hardship for generations until we get to know them as individuals. This applies particularly when encountering strangers in unfamiliar surroundings regardless of race or colour given that there are good and bad people in all societies/races and cultures?

    'Take people as you find them is a good mantra' but trust has to be earned and caution is a natural instinct.
     
  18. Dan

    DannyWilsonLovechild Well-Known Member

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    There's an element of each. A wariness, but we're going back thousands of years in the evolution of man, before modern wars. Back to tribes and early man. And of course, its really recently in mankinds evolution that races have gotten in closer proximity.

    And just in terms of bias. Interesting that your comment about gang culture. To tag on the comment about racism at the end of it infers youre are associated gang culture with black males. I don't have the exact stats I'm afraid so apologies, but my wife shared with me some of the comments from a speaker at an event. Can't recall his name but he's a young black male, I do know he's been on bbcqt previously (I first thought it was Akala, but I'm not sure it was). He suggested that in the region of 70% of gang attacks were carried out by white males from said gangs. But that part never gets reported and so feeds the suspicion that gangs are a black problem. I've no reason to doubt him, but at the same time I can't back up the statistic either. But when you start to look, you see lots of unconscious bias come into things. Particularly in terms of race, and I'll reiterate, we're talking split seconds in most parts, though others who are deeply racist will of course have much longer thought processes. I've seen plenty of people suddenly move seats, or look in certain ways just because a person of a particular race steps onto a tube, train or bus. And yes, its not just limited to white people.

    Caution is a natural instinct. But are you more cautious of a young black youth on a bus? Or a fat white middle aged man?

    Unconcious bias is repeatedly shown its not the latter. There was another interesting part of a training event I sat in for a while. The trainer described a person on acting nervously on a train. I won't do it the same justice as it was very clever and nuanced. The audience had to make an assumption who this person was from pure description. A long beard. A hat pulled down tight. A disguise covering his face and identity. A bag held tightly with unnatural looking items contained within. Heavy sturdy boots. Shifting nervously. Sweating. Flustered. Strange bulk around the waste beneath an oversized coat.

    Just about everyone of a 25 person audience assumed from the description that it was a middle eastern suicide bomber. It turned out it was someone dressed as a santa going to a fancy dress party and was late. Our biases fill gaps. Our minds are lazy and create shortcuts.

    There is a fantastic book by Dr R Cialdini into the psychology of Influence and some of the shortcuts our minds take. Though about influence, the true is same of prejudice and bias.
     
  19. Sup

    SuperTyke Well-Known Member

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    You don't even go to games. Claiming racism is rife at a game you haven't been to is lying
     
  20. Wilmersdorfer Winky

    Wilmersdorfer Winky Well-Known Member

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    Can’t tell whether you’re on a wind up or just thick as f*ck. Hope for your sake it’s the former.
     

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