[Official Site] Club Statement.

Donny-Red · Aug 12, 2019

Jay said: ↑

It's not a reward, it's a discussion between a large part of our fan base and the professionals who many of them idolise and would be willing to listen to, in an attempt solve a very real problem that I don't believe is going away and could very well get worse with how we've chosen to handle it.
Click to expand...

The flaw in this plan though is that it only works for those directly involved, invite 10 and those 10 will likely behave with a small chance of influencing 10 others, most of the other hundreds will feel victimised for not getting an invite and will be further disenfranchised.

Whereas if we arrest 10, we'll stop the lot of them.

pontyender · Aug 12, 2019

As a society, we've pussy-footed around for far too long, where discipline is concerned. Ban anyone found in possession of a smoke bomb or flare and make some arrests when that song is being sung.

BarnsleyReds · Aug 12, 2019

Jay said: ↑

It's not a reward, it's a discussion between a large part of our fan base and the professionals who many of them idolise and would be willing to listen to, in an attempt solve a very real problem that I don't believe is going away and could very well get worse with how we've chosen to handle it.
Click to expand...

I respect your approach, but I have my doubts it would work.

As had already been said, it would only work for the small number invited. They would just see it as an opportunity to get a selfie with players, not as an opportunity to change.

Django · Aug 12, 2019

I think the clubs in a tricky position. It’s easy to suggest throwing bans around but the club will only want to do that as a last resort. We simply don’t have the fan base to ban too many unless it’s 100% deserved.

If a fan for example has let pyro off inside the concourse then ban him for life that’s dangerous, if a fan has racially abused a player then ban him for life that’s disgraceful.

However if a fan has let pyro off after celebrating a goal in the stand or has joined in singing a song which contains a racial stereotype I don’t think they should be banned, obviously what they’ve done is wrong but I’d be trying all I can as a club to change these fans perception of what they’re doing rather than resorting to instant bans. These fans need educating rather than banning. That’s my view anyway.

MappRed · Aug 12, 2019

The approach simply wouldn’t work.

We aren’t dealing with five year old children who are being asked to change their behaviour by their favourite Disney character.

We’re dealing with large groups of people of all ages who are basking in the controversy that goes hand in hand with their actions whether it’s at Oakwell, an away ground or on social media.

There’s no place for racism in today’s society but at the end of the day you can’t force someone to educate themselves. If anyone’s guilty of engaging in said behaviour within Oakwell then a ban is the only option as far as I’m concerned.

Red-Taff. · Aug 12, 2019

Jay - I agree, the problem is going to worsen because it has ben handled appallingly badly by the club. They've scored a spectacular own goal.

There will be those who genuinely don't see anything racist or offensive in the chant whilst others (myself included) think it offensive.
The club clearly takes the line that it is offensive referring to 'stereotypical language' etc.

The 'chant' has had massive publicity on social media and in the national press and the whole footballing world will be looking to see how it is handled.

I was there for the Fulham match and there were 100's cheering and chanting the song.

fired · Aug 12, 2019

Django said: ↑

I think the clubs in a tricky position. It’s easy to suggest throwing bans around but the club will only want to do that as a last resort. We simply don’t have the fan base to ban too many unless it’s 100% deserved.

If a fan for example has let pyro off inside the concourse then ban him for life that’s dangerous, if a fan has racially abused a player then ban him for life that’s disgraceful.

However if a fan has let pyro off after celebrating a goal in the stand or has joined in singing a song which contains a racial stereotype I don’t think they should be banned, obviously what they’ve done is wrong but I’d be trying all I can as a club to change these fans perception of what they’re doing rather than resorting to instant bans. These fans need educating rather than banning. That’s my view anyway.
Click to expand...

Whilst i agree to a certain extent, you only have to look at Facebook and Twitter to see people attempting to explain why it’s wrong. Just met with “no pyro no party”, and “snowflakes”.
Also, by retaining fans who won’t behave you could be losing more who can’t put up with the behaviour.
I’ve pretty much decided to not bother with away games. Sad cos Im getting close to 92... I’m just sick of having my experience as a fan being ruined by people who just don’t care.

fired · Aug 12, 2019

Red-Taff. said: ↑

Jay - I agree, the problem is going to worsen because it has ben handled appallingly badly by the club. They've scored a spectacular own goal.

There will be those who genuinely don't see anything racist or offensive in the chant whilst others (myself included) think it offensive.
The club clearly takes the line that it is offensive referring to 'stereotypical language' etc.

The 'chant' has had massive publicity on social media and in the national press and the whole footballing world will be looking to see how it is handled.

I was there for the Fulham match and there were 100's cheering and chanting the song.
Click to expand...

What should the club have done?
Maybe a Millwall, and just pretend the issues don’t exist?

DannyWilsonLovechild · Aug 12, 2019

Hooky feller said: ↑

Here you go
Picked up off a NHS guidelines
Probably 20% of the article.
We can all offend occasionally without intent.
I certainly didn’t think pagan could be viewed as Racist.

Anti-Racist Language
The following represents comments on the usage of terms by social scientists when referring to work based around ethnicity. It is by no means an exhaustive list, nor a definitive guide. As social scientists should be aware, language is not only powerful as it structures and reinforces beliefs and prejudices, but it is also dynamic. As such, it must be recognised that these and other terms will re- emerge, be revised or disappear at a faster rate than the guidelines may be published.

African-Caribbean
This term is gradually replacing the term Afro-Caribbean to refer to Caribbean peoples and those of Caribbean origin who are of African descent. It should also be noted that there is now some evidence to suggest that the term should not be hyphenated and that indeed, the differences between such groups may mean the terms should be kept separate.

Afro-Caribbean
In Britain, this is a term often used by black West Indians. It is a term associated with a commitment to anti-racism. Afro/Caribbean is preferred to Afro-Caribbeanism

Asian
Refers to people from the Asian sub-continent – namely India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir, often as ethnic minorities in Britain. However, under some circumstances there may be objections to bracketing together a wide variety of different cultural and ethnic groups with very different positions within British society. Also, some members of particular ethnic groups may object to being referred to by their ‘country of origin’ when they have been living for several generations in Britain.

Black
This term is often used to refer to a variety of non-white groups. The term has taken on more political connotations with the rise of black activism in the USA since the 1960’s and now its usage implies solidarity against racism. The idea of ‘black’ has thus been reclaimed as a source of pride and identity.

To accept this means that we should be sensitive to the many negative connotations relating to the word ‘black’ in the English language (black leg, black- list etc).
Some Asians in Britain object to the use of the word ‘black’ being applied to them and some would argue that it also confused a number of ethnic groups which should be treated separately – Pakistani’s, Bangladeshi’s, Indian’s and so on.
Whilst there are many differences between and within each of the groups, the inclusive term black refers to those who have a shared history of European colonialism, neo-colonialism, imperialism, ethnocentrism and racism. One solution to this is to refer to “black peoples”, “black communities” etc in the plural to imply that there is a variety of such groups.
Black is a concept that embraces people who experience structural and institutional discrimination because of their skin colour and is often used politically to refer to people of African, Caribbean and South Asian origin.
It is also important to be aware of the fact that in some contexts “black” can also be used in a racist sense. The capitalisation of the letter “B” in the term “Black British”, “British Asian” are shifting ground and it should be stressed that there is a need to be very clear that the use of these terms does not prioritise nor indeed conflate ethnicity and citizenship.

British
Many would argue that one way to denote minority ethnics in this country would be to describe them as ‘British Asians’, ‘Chinese British’ etc. One advantage is that by referring to two ethnicity’s it avoids any suggestion that a person has to choose between them for their identity. However, the idea of ‘British’ also implies a false sense of unity. Many Scots, Welsh and Irish resist being identified as British and the territory denoted by the term contains a wide variety of cultures, languages and religions.

Classifications
The Commission for Racial Equality have produced a list of ‘ethnic classifications’ for the use of employers and other collecting information for the purpose of Equal Opportunities policies and this is compatible with that used for the 1991 Census. However, they recognise that no single classification system will be relevant to all contexts. The general classification list is as follows:
White
Black – Caribbean
Black – African
Black – Other (please specify) Indian
Pakistani
Bangladeshi
Chinese
Other (please describe)
These classifications are a confused mixture of skin colour and geographic regions designation. Many people living in particular geographic regions not having the designated skin colour (ie Black or White) are excluded or have to locate themselves in the Other category or the region of their ethnic descent.
There are also real issues with the lack of definition over the term “white”, which clearly needs to be expanded and also made clear that there are problems when accounting for people of mixed heritage and the “other” category becomes an amalgam of people who do not feel they fit anywhere.

Coloured
At one time this was considered an acceptable term to use in the USA. However, since the 1960’s and the rise of black activism in the USA, this term is seen as offensive to many black people. This term is regarded as outdated in the UK and should be avoided as it is generally viewed as offensive to many black people. When applied to South Africa, the term reflects issues of ethnic divide and apartheid, and needs to be contextualised and used with specificity.
In the United States of America, the term “people of colour” is often used as a form of self-reference for people who suffer from racism and discrimination on the basis of visible skin colour difference to the white Anglo-Saxon (WASP) political majority population.
Developing Nations
This is another term used to refer to Third World or Southern countries. However, it can be seen as prejudicial since there is an implicit comparison with ‘developed’ countries.

Ethnic
Refers to cultural groups of various kinds. Although it is often erroneously used to refer to Black communities only, all people have ethnicity so that white people are also part of particular ethnic groups. To avoid this confusion, it is best to spell out the relevant ethnic groups explicitly, where this is appropriate depends upon the context.
The extent to which a classification of different ethnic groups is appropriate depends upon the context. In some London boroughs for example, it may be more appropriate to distinguish a number of distinct ethnic groups whereas in other area of Britain this may not be so appropriate. (See also the discussion under ‘minorities’).

Ethnocentric
This means a tendency to perceive the world from the point of view of ones own culture. Ethnocentrism can lead to racism when applied to issues of race.

Indian
In the US context this word is often used to refer to indigenous Americans. However, the term is associated with racism.

Minority Ethnic
Minority ethnic is preferred to ethnic minority as everyone belongs to an ethnic group. Minority ethnic places the emphasis on the minority status rather than the ethnicity whereas ethnic minority places the emphasis on the minority status of the group.
Mixed-Cultural
This is thought by some to be a neutral way of describing the variety of ethnic cultures and peoples in Britain. However, others object to this term on the grounds that it assumes that they are all equal rather than that some are dominated by the racism of others.

Multi-Cultural
This is thought by some to be a neutral way of describing the variety of ethnic cultures and peoples in Britain. However, others object to this term on the grounds that it assumes that they are all equal rather than that some are dominated by the racism of others

Non White
This may be acceptable where one wishes to refer to, say whites and non-whites. However, continual reference to non-whites could be perceived as racist.
With frequent allusion it would therefore be better to use terms like black peoples, British Asians etc since some black groups would rather be identified in their own right than by reference to whites.

Pagan
A rather derogatory term used to describe the beliefs and religion of non- Christian peoples. The term has racist overtones.

Race
Originally associated with social Darwinism & eugenics and therefore highly pejorative. In a biological sense the word is unhelpful since it does not describe the variety of ethnic groups which sociologists would normally wish to identify. Some have felt that it is necessary to put the word into inverted commas in order to make it clear that these are social distinctions being referred to rather than biological ones and in order to distance themselves from the original meaning of the term.
In the nineteenth century, the concept of “race” was used to argue that there were distinct physical and genetic differences between groups that constituted humankind. It was suggested that these “fixed” biological “differences” were “natural” and evident in skin colour, head shape, facial features, hair type and physique. This led scientists to assert that there was a racial typology with a hierarchy of “races”, and that certain “races” were innately superior to others
Click to expand...

I’ll gladly admit my complete ignorance to why pagan classification is considered racist.

I know they had a separate calendar and anything else is from Hollywood, so I’m not going to give that any credence.

Loko the Tyke · Aug 12, 2019

Red-Taff. said: ↑

Jay - I agree, the problem is going to worsen because it has ben handled appallingly badly by the club. They've scored a spectacular own goal.
.
Click to expand...

Can we rewind to where the club have handled this appallingly?

It's Monday evening. I'm sure everyone at the club has felt the full force of the weekend and are speaking to various departments internally and externally about what took place. By 11am today they'd released a statement yet again condemning the behaviour of a minority of fans.

There's an assumption here we're just dealing with children or 'the Barnsley Yoof'. We're not. We don't need to be inviting select ones in for meetings with the players, we need to be banning anyone found with a flare or smoke bomb inside or outside the ground. We can't be as ruthless on the chanting, because the intention isn't racist, even if the song is. That's a trickier one to handle and one Manchester United couldn't get right straight away.

mansfield_red · Aug 12, 2019

I'd put out a lengthy press release explaining why the chant is unwelcome, unacceptable and not reflective of the club's values. Accept that people may have been ignorant of the implications previously but it will not be tolerated moving forward. Make it known that the club is going to film the ponty, identify the seats of people singing it, their names go into a hat and 5 get lifetime bans. Every match from here on out.

Loko the Tyke · Aug 12, 2019

mansfield_red said: ↑

I'd put out a lengthy press release explaining why the chant is unwelcome, unacceptable and not reflective of the club's values. Accept that people may have been ignorant of the implications previously but it will not be tolerated moving forward. Make it known that the club is going to film the ponty, identify the seats of people singing it, their names go into a hat and 5 get lifetime bans. Every match from here on out.
Click to expand...

That live stream of the draw would be more popular than the next round of the Carabao Cup

Jay · Aug 12, 2019

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorative_justice

Young Nudger · Aug 12, 2019

Hooky feller said: ↑

Here you go
Picked up off a NHS guidelines
Probably 20% of the article.
We can all offend occasionally without intent.
I certainly didn’t think pagan could be viewed as Racist.

Anti-Racist Language
The following represents comments on the usage of terms by social scientists when referring to work based around ethnicity. It is by no means an exhaustive list, nor a definitive guide. As social scientists should be aware, language is not only powerful as it structures and reinforces beliefs and prejudices, but it is also dynamic. As such, it must be recognised that these and other terms will re- emerge, be revised or disappear at a faster rate than the guidelines may be published.

African-Caribbean
This term is gradually replacing the term Afro-Caribbean to refer to Caribbean peoples and those of Caribbean origin who are of African descent. It should also be noted that there is now some evidence to suggest that the term should not be hyphenated and that indeed, the differences between such groups may mean the terms should be kept separate.

Afro-Caribbean
In Britain, this is a term often used by black West Indians. It is a term associated with a commitment to anti-racism. Afro/Caribbean is preferred to Afro-Caribbeanism

Asian
Refers to people from the Asian sub-continent – namely India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir, often as ethnic minorities in Britain. However, under some circumstances there may be objections to bracketing together a wide variety of different cultural and ethnic groups with very different positions within British society. Also, some members of particular ethnic groups may object to being referred to by their ‘country of origin’ when they have been living for several generations in Britain.

Black
This term is often used to refer to a variety of non-white groups. The term has taken on more political connotations with the rise of black activism in the USA since the 1960’s and now its usage implies solidarity against racism. The idea of ‘black’ has thus been reclaimed as a source of pride and identity.

To accept this means that we should be sensitive to the many negative connotations relating to the word ‘black’ in the English language (black leg, black- list etc).
Some Asians in Britain object to the use of the word ‘black’ being applied to them and some would argue that it also confused a number of ethnic groups which should be treated separately – Pakistani’s, Bangladeshi’s, Indian’s and so on.
Whilst there are many differences between and within each of the groups, the inclusive term black refers to those who have a shared history of European colonialism, neo-colonialism, imperialism, ethnocentrism and racism. One solution to this is to refer to “black peoples”, “black communities” etc in the plural to imply that there is a variety of such groups.
Black is a concept that embraces people who experience structural and institutional discrimination because of their skin colour and is often used politically to refer to people of African, Caribbean and South Asian origin.
It is also important to be aware of the fact that in some contexts “black” can also be used in a racist sense. The capitalisation of the letter “B” in the term “Black British”, “British Asian” are shifting ground and it should be stressed that there is a need to be very clear that the use of these terms does not prioritise nor indeed conflate ethnicity and citizenship.

British
Many would argue that one way to denote minority ethnics in this country would be to describe them as ‘British Asians’, ‘Chinese British’ etc. One advantage is that by referring to two ethnicity’s it avoids any suggestion that a person has to choose between them for their identity. However, the idea of ‘British’ also implies a false sense of unity. Many Scots, Welsh and Irish resist being identified as British and the territory denoted by the term contains a wide variety of cultures, languages and religions.

Classifications
The Commission for Racial Equality have produced a list of ‘ethnic classifications’ for the use of employers and other collecting information for the purpose of Equal Opportunities policies and this is compatible with that used for the 1991 Census. However, they recognise that no single classification system will be relevant to all contexts. The general classification list is as follows:
White
Black – Caribbean
Black – African
Black – Other (please specify) Indian
Pakistani
Bangladeshi
Chinese
Other (please describe)
These classifications are a confused mixture of skin colour and geographic regions designation. Many people living in particular geographic regions not having the designated skin colour (ie Black or White) are excluded or have to locate themselves in the Other category or the region of their ethnic descent.
There are also real issues with the lack of definition over the term “white”, which clearly needs to be expanded and also made clear that there are problems when accounting for people of mixed heritage and the “other” category becomes an amalgam of people who do not feel they fit anywhere.

Coloured
At one time this was considered an acceptable term to use in the USA. However, since the 1960’s and the rise of black activism in the USA, this term is seen as offensive to many black people. This term is regarded as outdated in the UK and should be avoided as it is generally viewed as offensive to many black people. When applied to South Africa, the term reflects issues of ethnic divide and apartheid, and needs to be contextualised and used with specificity.
In the United States of America, the term “people of colour” is often used as a form of self-reference for people who suffer from racism and discrimination on the basis of visible skin colour difference to the white Anglo-Saxon (WASP) political majority population.
Developing Nations
This is another term used to refer to Third World or Southern countries. However, it can be seen as prejudicial since there is an implicit comparison with ‘developed’ countries.

Ethnic
Refers to cultural groups of various kinds. Although it is often erroneously used to refer to Black communities only, all people have ethnicity so that white people are also part of particular ethnic groups. To avoid this confusion, it is best to spell out the relevant ethnic groups explicitly, where this is appropriate depends upon the context.
The extent to which a classification of different ethnic groups is appropriate depends upon the context. In some London boroughs for example, it may be more appropriate to distinguish a number of distinct ethnic groups whereas in other area of Britain this may not be so appropriate. (See also the discussion under ‘minorities’).

Ethnocentric
This means a tendency to perceive the world from the point of view of ones own culture. Ethnocentrism can lead to racism when applied to issues of race.

Indian
In the US context this word is often used to refer to indigenous Americans. However, the term is associated with racism.

Minority Ethnic
Minority ethnic is preferred to ethnic minority as everyone belongs to an ethnic group. Minority ethnic places the emphasis on the minority status rather than the ethnicity whereas ethnic minority places the emphasis on the minority status of the group.
Mixed-Cultural
This is thought by some to be a neutral way of describing the variety of ethnic cultures and peoples in Britain. However, others object to this term on the grounds that it assumes that they are all equal rather than that some are dominated by the racism of others.

Multi-Cultural
This is thought by some to be a neutral way of describing the variety of ethnic cultures and peoples in Britain. However, others object to this term on the grounds that it assumes that they are all equal rather than that some are dominated by the racism of others

Non White
This may be acceptable where one wishes to refer to, say whites and non-whites. However, continual reference to non-whites could be perceived as racist.
With frequent allusion it would therefore be better to use terms like black peoples, British Asians etc since some black groups would rather be identified in their own right than by reference to whites.

Pagan
A rather derogatory term used to describe the beliefs and religion of non- Christian peoples. The term has racist overtones.

Race
Originally associated with social Darwinism & eugenics and therefore highly pejorative. In a biological sense the word is unhelpful since it does not describe the variety of ethnic groups which sociologists would normally wish to identify. Some have felt that it is necessary to put the word into inverted commas in order to make it clear that these are social distinctions being referred to rather than biological ones and in order to distance themselves from the original meaning of the term.
In the nineteenth century, the concept of “race” was used to argue that there were distinct physical and genetic differences between groups that constituted humankind. It was suggested that these “fixed” biological “differences” were “natural” and evident in skin colour, head shape, facial features, hair type and physique. This led scientists to assert that there was a racial typology with a hierarchy of “races”, and that certain “races” were innately superior to others
Click to expand...

Have a day off cocker.
Watch a bit of tele.

redrum · Aug 13, 2019

pontyender said: ↑

As a society, we've pussy-footed around for far too long, where discipline is concerned. Ban anyone found in possession of a smoke bomb or flare and make some arrests when that song is being sung.
Click to expand...

Arrest for singing the song

pontyender said: ↑

As a society, we've pussy-footed around for far too long, where discipline is concerned. Ban anyone found in possession of a smoke bomb or flare and make some arrests when that song is being sung.
Click to expand...

Arrested for singing that song? I don't want to hear it again, but arrested is abit far fetched, on what grounds exactly?
There is a song sung by the minority in the corner and on away days with the lyrics "**** the pope" this could be highly offensive for catholic supporters and players can we have police arresting people singing this song aswell please?

Donny-Red · Aug 13, 2019

redrum said: ↑

Arrest for singing the song

Arrested for singing that song? I don't want to hear it again, but arrested is abit far fetched, on what grounds exactly?
There is a song sung by the minority in the corner and on away days with the lyrics "**** the pope" this could be highly offensive for catholic supporters and players can we have police arresting people singing this song aswell please?
Click to expand...

I’d be happy with that.

I’m possibly the only one who’s complained about it previously.

Vesp77 · Aug 13, 2019

Jay said: ↑

They're not 'so called' fans, they're fans. Disagreeing with/Disliking anything about them doesn't change that.

Black people are many times more likely to be born with Sickle Cell Disease than white people. That is a truism. It is also an assumption based on the colour of a person's skin. Is it racist?

That is the first definition of the word I've read on here that I agree with.

Because it is!

I don't condone any of the behaviour to which the statement is referring. The club have asked us to stop singing the song, so we should respect that. They've asked us to stop using pyrotechnics, so we should respect that too. We. Not them, we.

I'm going to make the assumption that the majority of those singing the song are young and the majority condemning them on here are older. The generation to which those fans singing the song belong are, without doubt, the most tolerant this country has ever produced in terms of attitudes towards race, gender and sexuality. I grew up through the 70s and 80s. I clearly remember the songs, chants and shouts voiced by my generation and older.

The generation that is getting such abuse on here have to deal with a lack of decent jobs, higher education that puts them tens of thousands into debt, a social security system that is a shadow of what older generations enjoyed, a housing market so inflated many will never own their own home, social housing waiting lists so long they may die first, an ever increasing pension age and the very real possibility that the state pension will have been abolished by the time they reach it. 73% of people aged 18-24 who voted in the referendum voted to remain in Europe, but they're being dragged out of it by generations who enjoyed all the benefits that they don't and will now be able to take even more away.

They're now being told they're racists by a generation of racists brought up on Love Thy Neighbour, Mind Your Language and books about Little Black Sambo. They're told not to use pyro by a club that took a bus through the town lighting exactly the same devices in celebration. For singing that one of their heroes has a big dick they're called every name under the sun and told that castration is too good for them.I don't like the song but I know which I find more distasteful.

Are they pissed off? I would think so. Do they trust anyone from the older generation? I wouldn't. The behaviour is a problem, I'm not disputing that. But this approach aint going to work.
Click to expand...

You're one of those that talks a lot without saying much of any worth.

Hooky feller · Aug 13, 2019

Young Nudger said: ↑

Have a day off cocker.
Watch a bit of tele.
Click to expand...

Went to bed. Need all the beauty sleep I can get.

DannyWilsonLovechild · Aug 13, 2019

Well it's official. We're all talking a bunch of....

mansfield_red · Aug 13, 2019

Jay said: ↑

Black people are many times more likely to be born with Sickle Cell Disease than white people. That is a truism. It is also an assumption based on the colour of a person's skin. Is it racist?
Click to expand...

Quoting the statistical evidence isn't racist, but if you have 10,000 people singing "he's got sickle cells" when there's no evidence that he does in fact have sickle cell disease then yes, I would say that's an issue.

[Official Site] Club Statement.

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