Crowd behaviour at football - when did things change?

Discussion in 'Bulletin Board' started by Metatarsal, Aug 12, 2019.

  1. Tarntyke

    Tarntyke Well-Known Member

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    Jimmy Hill and MOTD in the 70s inadvertently fuelled the spread of football hooliganism by showing clips of fighting in the grounds. It seemed that every team’s hooligans wanted a piece of the action and wanted to ‘better’ what they’d seen on MOTD. In the 70s if you didn’t wear your colours you were a coward, and if you did wear them you were fair game.
     
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  2. North Yorks Red

    North Yorks Red Well-Known Member

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    70’s and 80’s were extremely ‘lively’ , but by and large because you were expecting it anybody who wanted could by and large avoid it.
    A lot of it was handbags though, one set of fans would run at one another chuck a few things and the others would back off.
    Obviously there were exceptions when the serious nutters met.
    As for fans being able to stand together that tended to depend on the two clubs involved, there were games where it was just amiable banter.
    I can’t remember a time where our own fans were as annoying to their own though, in days gone by some hairy arsed miners would have a ‘word’ with any group getting annoying and problem solved
     
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  3. Young Nudger

    Young Nudger Well-Known Member

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    QUOTE="Tarntyke, post: 2334388, member: 6756"]Jimmy Hill and MOTD in the 70s inadvertently fuelled the spread of football hooliganism by showing clips of fighting in the grounds. It seemed that every team’s hooligans wanted a piece of the action and wanted to ‘better’ what they’d seen on MOTD. In the 70s if you didn’t wear your colours you were a coward, and if you did wear them you were fair game.[/QUOTE]

    There was a scramble to try to be the worst.
    Millwall are still living that - hence - no one likes us we don’t care.
    Every club was trying to be worse than the other.
    If the club got a mention in the newspaper or better still on the tele then that was great - a talking point for a long time.

    As for colours - I have found it the total opposite.
    There are a few unwritten rules amongst hoolis - they don’t wear colours and they don’t hassle anyone wearing colours.
    That’s why you will find guys of a certain age - and even younger guys involved now - would not be seen dead in colours.
    There was a trend for a long time - I don’t know whether it is so prevalent these days - to look smart and wear the expensive gear.
     
  4. Dalestykes

    Dalestykes Well-Known Member

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    I’ve been going regularly since 76 and what you see now at Oakwell, or anywhere else, doesn’t compare in any way with those days.
    Unlike others I don’t see a deterioration in behaviour over the last 4/5 seasons, except for some posters on this site in how they address others.
    Reasons for decline.
    1. All seater stadiums.
    2. More women attending
    3. By far the biggest reason. The massive demographic change. Older more affluent supporters (many who were part of that earlier scene but have ‘grown up’) and a younger group of supporters who (in spite of some of the comments directed at them on other threads) are just brighter and much more tolerant than my generation and those that went before me. A pity we’re pricing them out of the game but as with most things in life, too many of the older generation don’t give a toss what they leave for those that follow us.
     
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  5. Dar

    Darfield138 Well-Known Member

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    I think it has changed a lot since the 1970s when I think what became known as hooliganism started. I recall my dad took me to first game in 1973 Reds v Workington on a tuesday night, barely 2000 at oakwell so no trouble there. His mate gave us some tickets for Leeds v Man utd a few weeks later (before you say owt I was 9) . The violence was staggering and we never went again (thankfully) my dad saying we would put all our efforts into Barnsley. I think the first time I saw any trouble from Barnsley was around 1981/82 when we got promoted, at Rotherham and Sheff utd and at home in the cup against liverpool (after horrendous tales at Liverpool) A good few years later I ended up talking to some old ICF lads at West Ham and they said they started an organised crew because the bigger clubs, particularly Leeds and Man Utd would run them ragged by sheer numbers otherwise. Other clubs started to follow suit around the early eighties.
    They told an amusing tale of how they had drawn Swindon in the cup and were going to have it large with the carrot cruncher cops. Unfortunately for them the cops had other ideas, identified their coaches when they pulled off the motorway, found alcohol, arrested the whole bus load and kept em in until 4 in the morning
    From the mid nineties there was a decline but I put that down to two things. First were undercover police operations where people were getting five years inside (particuarly London and Manchester) and the second was the advent of ecstacy. A whole generation had found something different and mutually exclusive to do on a weekend.
    Now I think the problem has come back and has been coming back since the early noughties. Old timers have returned and films such as the Football Factory made it aspirational to a new generation. Now the policing seems mostly weak interspersed with gross over reaction (surely an indication they arent being pro-active enough). They seem happy to let the stewards do the work in the grounds. I looked round our stand on saturday and didnt see a single cop in it. On saturday outside our stand were three carriers from Durham Police. They don't know our troublecausers, won't get in their faces, won't make arrests to stay in sheffield and have to come back here to go to court
     
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  6. Til

    Tilertoes Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think you can really compare the lunacy of extreme violence in the 70s and 80s to some children setting smoke bombs off. Those times were absolutely ridiculous.
     
  7. orsenkaht

    orsenkaht Well-Known Member

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    I think that the worst I ever saw at Oakwell was a game against Aston Villa in (I think) September 1971. I don't think the club or the police had much notion of segregation in those days and there were hordes of Villa fans in the old Ponty End. I think it was that game where a well known local "character" was using his pot arm as a weapon in the skirmishes and his mate, who was a biker, was doing similar with his crash helmet. My recollection is that in the 70's there was little direction of visiting fans and that you needed to keep your eyes open if you walked down Grasmere Road to the ground - particularly when occasionally playing the Sheffield clubs.

    As things developed nationally there began to be greater police presence at games, and in the late 70's/early 80's, any hint of trouble at the Spion Kop (away) end was usually met with a response by SYP that would have done Russian or Chinese state forces proud. Obviously this was the days before CCTV became prevalent, otherwise some of those officers would have had very short careers. There were, and probably still are some who thought (and some who still do) that the hooligans deserve the larruping they got from the police. But that sort of attitude eventually led to fans being caged, and thence to Hillsborough. You could also argue that some of those attitudes were on display during the miners' strike, though again, others will take a different view.

    So there was the conundrum of how we make fans behave without compromising their safety by caging them. Thatcher's response was that all clubs should have to bring in membership schemes, so that fans could be identified and regulated. However the main thrust of the Taylor Report was that more seating was desirable in the interests of safety. The cost of conversion of the larger grounds partly led to the creation of the Premier League and the inflows of money that came with it. To my mind that has made football safer and more comfortable to watch, and also a game to which you could safely take your family. But there is still a small element of (mostly) male, (mostly ) young supporters who like to exercise their youthful belligerence when circumstances permit. And there probably always will be. I'd never go to an away game because you usually have no choice but to occupy the same part of the stadium, whereas at Oakwell you can select your own area of the ground - and enjoy the quiet reflection of the East Stand Lower!
     
  8. Stephen Dawson

    Stephen Dawson Well-Known Member

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    You're hard.
     
  9. TitusMagee

    TitusMagee Well-Known Member

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    Barnsley's answer to Danny Dyer: resident football hooligan historian, Young "Nutty" Nudger.
     
  10. hav

    havana red1 Well-Known Member

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    This was certainly a product of the 60s. I have quite a few copies of the Football League Review magazine from 65-7 ish and almost every copy has an article with pictures asking 'how are we going to deal with this problem?' It would appear from the documentary evidence i possess that football hooliganism was in full swing before the 70s. It was bad in the 70s, could mention so many instances of shockingly violent behaviours from then too from attending reds games from 76 onwards.
    Now we appear to have the 'look at us aren't we crazeeeee' mob who bounce up and down, climb the beams, throw beer in the air and set flares off behind the stands: all for the benefit of social media attention.
    So it's hugely different from then. Now we have a juvenile like exhibition of puerile behaviour driven by a desire to get a minute of fame on-line but you're 98% less likely to get your head kicked in.
     
  11. Young Nudger

    Young Nudger Well-Known Member

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    I’d agree with most of that.
    Striking miners tho were different to hooli actions.
    The planning and aggression used by hoolis was alien to striking miners.
    Striking miners were far more naive.
     
  12. Brush

    Brush Well-Known Member

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    The last time I experienced that must have been early 1970s, it was a 3rd division game against Rotherham at Oakwell and I bumped into some of my school mates near the halfway line. I don't recall any trouble on that occasion.

    Returning to the original post, I can't honestly say anything has changed in the years I've been following Barnsley. There has always been such tribalism, sadly it's human nature.
     
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  13. fit

    fitzytyke Well-Known Member

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    As I see it, you can mix with opposing fans without fear of trouble. It's a lot better than the 80s in that respect. Of course there is organised stuff that the normal fan rarely sees or gets dragged into. Leave them to it.

    The current crop of youngsters are causing more problems for our own fans than the oppositions.

    They're probably proud of the reputation they're getting and see Saturdays as a an excuse to misbehave without getting into trouble, in fact some probably think it's expected of them.

    One young lad was being ejected as we were going in at 5 to 3 on Saturday. What a waste of a ticket.
     
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  14. churtonred

    churtonred Well-Known Member

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    (QUOTE) There was a scramble to try to be the worst.
    Millwall are still living that - hence - no one likes us we don’t care.
    Every club was trying to be worse than the other.
    If the club got a mention in the newspaper or better still on the tele then that was great - a talking point for a long time.

    As for colours - I have found it the total opposite.
    There are a few unwritten rules amongst hoolis - they don’t wear colours and they don’t hassle anyone wearing colours.
    That’s why you will find guys of a certain age - and even younger guys involved now - would not be seen dead in colours.
    There was a trend for a long time - I don’t know whether it is so prevalent these days - to look smart and wear the expensive gear.[/QUOTE]


    How come I got the **** kicked out of me by about 6 Tottenham fans outside White Hart Lane after the Enfield game then BECAUSE I was wearing a scarf and they wanted it then nudger?
    Honour among hoolis? Unwritten codes? My arse.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
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  15. Terry Nutkins

    Terry Nutkins Well-Known Member

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    The decline in police numbers has definitely had an impact on the behaviour of football fans.

    Also the rise of social media and wanting to have videos spread on Facebook of fans acting daft hasn’t helped.

    It’s still nowhere near what it was like in the 70s and 80s but that’s because it was so bad then it was almost like a civil war every weekend in towns and cities across the UK.
     
  16. Stephen Dawson

    Stephen Dawson Well-Known Member

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    It's a world war at your front door I'll tell ya ;)
     
  17. lk3

    lk311 Well-Known Member

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    There was a scramble to try to be the worst.
    Millwall are still living that - hence - no one likes us we don’t care.
    Every club was trying to be worse than the other.
    If the club got a mention in the newspaper or better still on the tele then that was great - a talking point for a long time.

    As for colours - I have found it the total opposite.
    There are a few unwritten rules amongst hoolis - they don’t wear colours and they don’t hassle anyone wearing colours.
    That’s why you will find guys of a certain age - and even younger guys involved now - would not be seen dead in colours.
    There was a trend for a long time - I don’t know whether it is so prevalent these days - to look smart and wear the expensive gear.[/QUOTE]

    I grew up in Lincoln, and in the 80’s for a small club the fans had a proper reputation that was respected by the larger well known clubs.
    Couple of things on above and in general:

    Fighting back then was very organised, most meets were arranged away from the grounds by the serious firms, most fighting in or around a ground was either spontaneous or wannabes trying to impress.
    The organised meets was done with a degree of conduct, no weapons etc.
    I wouldn’t say there was a scramble to be the worst, but definitely a drive to have the ‘best’ crew.
    Unfortunately as this grew more wannabes tried to tag on and the violence got worse.
    Even back then the ‘proper’ crew didn’t wear colours and like you say they didn’t go after fans with colours on. The wannabes however did cos they were constantly pushing the situation.
    Nowadays there doesn’t appear to have that organisation or ‘respect’ (term used loosely) and seem more interested in showing off and being clever.
     
  18. Stephen Dawson

    Stephen Dawson Well-Known Member

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    You can tell who they all are without knowing them. Stone Island coats and jumpers, Burberry caps, tennis jackets. Everyone's a Bjorn Borg or John Mcenroe reject. Kids with no stubble barely shaving getting served alcohol.

    I think the clubs should be more vigilant the hooligans stand out a mile off.
     
  19. Row

    Row Z Active Member

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    I agree with this. I first went to matches in the mid to late 80’s so can’t comment on the 69’ and 70’s other than what you read about.

    I’ve been to numerous home and away games in my time and can honestly say that the general behaviour is loads better now than it used to be, certainly before and after the games.

    With regards to violence I remember West Brom away 96/97 (as someone else pointed out) with folk scrapping in front gardens outside the ground, various games gains the Sheffield clubs away, etc where you were frightened getting to the ground and then afterwards getting home. Birmingham away in the play-offs a few years later was probably the worst of the lot.

    As for racism, I vividly remember 2 Sheff United games in particular. On the way from the station to the ground and again during the game a large group of Reds fans were singing ‘Barnsley are white’ because at the time we had no black players whereas united had a fair few. A year or 2 later we’d signed a black player (Viv Anderson I think) and on the way to the ground and during the match reds fans were singing ‘there’s only one n****r in our team’. I can remember loads of other direct and indirect racist chants around that time a lot worse than you hear now.

    Nowadays you rarely see the bother and generally things are much more civilised - until you get in the ground....

    The aura of Ultra’s from the continent and rise of social media with pages dedicated to videos of away fans has created a culture where young fans try to act as daft as possible for the benefit of twitter and Facebook, usually at the back of the stand at half time. Unfortunately, everyone is trying to outdo each other so it just gets more and more extreme each time.

    It’s these kids that is driving the recent behaviour in the ground. It is by no means restricted to ourselves but we need to get a grip of it quickly because it’s making us look a bunch of idiots.

    As for racism, from being overtly racist we went through a phase where folk wouldn’t say anything overtly racist even if they thought it (from around the time of the new millennium). I think there’s been a wider societal shift in that over the last 3-5 years. It’s now become much more accepted for folk to act and talk in a racist manner and it feels like we’ve regressed.
     
  20. ScubaTyke

    ScubaTyke Well-Known Member

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    Wow, I had the exact same experience at the same game. I was living in Aylesbury at the time and had gone on the train from there alone. 16 years old and the year I joined the army.
     

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