Why aren't votes in Parliament in secret to .....

Discussion in 'Bulletin Board' started by GeorgeRobledo, Oct 18, 2019.

  1. Geo

    GeorgeRobledo Well-Known Member

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    Stop all this bullying of MPs by the whips etc?
     
  2. Plankton Pete

    Plankton Pete Well-Known Member

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    So that they are accountable to the folk who voted them in.
     
  3. Dan

    DannyWilsonLovechild Well-Known Member

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    The whips are the power of a party. Its based largely on bullying, blackmail, sweeteners and just about everything that's not good about trading and influence. Whips play a huge part all the way through from selection of potential MPs to how they act and what they put forward, support and even say.

    It happens in both the main parties, and the way voting occurs, you have to go through lobbies so anyone can stand there and see who is going through the "right" lobby.

    A recent book I read interviewed one MP who had been in the pub, the bell rang (there are still pubs near Westminster that have a bell that rings when a vote is due so they can head back and vote), he got to parliament, the whips pushed him into the relevant lobby and he had no idea what the bill was or what way he'd just voted.

    Give me European Parliament every day of the week.
     
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  4. Geo

    GeorgeRobledo Well-Known Member

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    But that's exactly what doesn't happen. They obey their leaders orders despite this being against their constituents wishes.
     
  5. Redstone

    Redstone Well-Known Member

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    Because most people don't care which way anyone voted on anything really. A large section of the population ignore politics completely.
    It's only a big issues like this where accountability comes into play. So the for example Dan Jarvis and Stephanie Peacock are going to have a tough choice. The party postion is going to be to reject the "deal" but they are representing large leave constituencies.
     
  6. 6ozDave

    6ozDave Well-Known Member

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    If they were accountable to constituents, it's claimed Johnson's deal would pass with a majority of 100.
     
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  7. Plankton Pete

    Plankton Pete Well-Known Member

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    But if voting was secret then it would be impossible to find out if they did or didn't do as promised in their election campaign.
     
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  8. Geo

    GeorgeRobledo Well-Known Member

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    but they don't anyway..they obey their masters.
     
  9. Sco

    Scoff Well-Known Member

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    Why? The governments own predictions indicate that Johnson's deal will leave *every UK resident* £2,250 per year worse off and hit GDP by around 4-6% (roughly 2-3x as bad as the credit crunch). If they think this is bad for the country, it is their duty to vote against it - Interests of Country first and foremost, Constituents second, Party/self third. What their constituents voted for in an opinion poll 3.5 years ago is not the deciding factor.

    You've also got to remember, that Johnsons deal is actually worse than Mays deal - for reasons which Johnson himself voted against it (twice) six months ago.
     
  10. Dan

    DannyWilsonLovechild Well-Known Member

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    I fear the biggest issue (and happy to debate the why's of this) nowadays is that a very large number of politicians follow party first and don't genuinely act in good faith when representing their constituents. Country first, constiuents second, party third. is the order an MP is encouraged to follow when carrying out their duties.

    There will be many times when the view of a politician is different to constituents because they have more evidence and data and have access to reports and intelligence (not brain matter) that we just don't.

    What should happen is an MP has free votes at all times and party lines on this tribal basis are broken and removed. They are then truly answerable to their constituents and can openly share with constituents why they've voted that way because of information they've seen and reports they've read.

    Instead our politics takes part in the shadows and what comes into light is lies, smear, jingoism and spin to generate a certain sentiment rather than truly suggest what action they feel would be best and why.

    Take Matt Hancock on bbcqt last night (please someone take him somewhere other than public view). He's undergone a bit of a personality change since his charlatanism from being against everything Boris Johnson advocated, to now embracing it like a long lost friend. He seems intent on living up to a populist version of himself. Shouty, interjecting, rude, talking in soundbites and failing to answer questions. Last night he was very much appalled by the racism by the brave England players while they played in Bulgaria. But he couldn't condemn the blatant racism of his own Prime Minister.

    And this is the problem we've got. We have people encouraged to lie for their party good, but be populist in order to generate more power and votes for the party good.

    Party good oversees all good for the country. Not for all MP's. But for too many for it not to be the majority.
     
  11. Marlon

    Marlon Well-Known Member

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    The point is you know how they voted irrespective of what they voted . This then gives you information of whether to vote for them or not next time.
     
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  12. troff

    troff Well-Known Member

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    The pertinent point is being made above, and has been mentioned a lot but is skirted round by many.

    An MPs first duty is to the COUNTRY. To the general good for the country. THEN their constituents, and only then their party.

    But it is then assumed MPs vote against the brexit bill (or anything) just because the whip says so.

    Not necessarily the case. 70% of people in Barnsley voted to leave the EU - but that doesn’t mean that the elected representatives of the area will believe that to be in the best interests of the country (1st priority), nor that it was in the best interests of those constituents, despite them voting for it (2nd priority). Even if they did support leaving the eu, they don’t have to agree to the deal on the table and certainly not crashing out with nothing.

    People like major Dan, Stephanie Peacock and Angela Smith are actually putting their future as an MP at risk by not just giving the majority of those who voted for them what they asked for.

    I’m not so sure I go along with the assertion that they solely toe party line.

    I’ve always thought many people in politics are self serving, though in this matter I don’t really see that in all people - if anything more on the side of leave.

    The biggest self servers are the likes of Farage and Johnson, both of whom ardently on the same side of, by coincidence, the large corporations and even nations who have over the years afforded them, directly and indirectly, a great amount of financial support. That is skirted over as only the people ‘blocking democracy’ by daring to not agree with the terms of the exit bill (because it’s crap for want of a better way of saying it) - and won’t allow a no deal exit which they believe (and I personally agree) would be a disaster.

    We will all be about three grand a year worse off on average. Controls on immigration, such a big priority of the leave vote in this area, will, yes, be in the lap of central government (it pretty much was anyway, but still) - that doesn’t mean that the levels of migration will reduce. In fact there has been no assertion from anyone that it will. We will have a massive divorce bill, and have to start from scratch with all trading deals. It is predicted by even the hardest line brexiteers that it will take years and years to get any which will get close to getting us to what we have now.

    The uneasy peace and agreement in Ireland is being put under huge risk, to the point that they are trying to allow Northern Ireland to have less of an exit in effect than the rest of the U.K.

    The exit deal negotiated seems to benefit nobody other than those who are desperate to leave the eu no matter what and at any consequence.

    I’m very clearly on the side of remain and I know I’m not in the majority in this part of the world.

    But I don’t understand at all why either this deal or a no deal exit would be at all attractive to anybody around here. I genuinely don’t see any up side - over and above it finally settling the general civil unrest this whole situation has caused. I really don’t.

    Hey ho. We shall see what happens in Westminster tomorrow. I can’t think whether it will be worse if they accept or reject it to be honest. If they accept we’re stuck with a shocking exit deal and probably have to sort something else again by the end of 2020, but it will at least be finally done - for now.

    If they reject, which I suspect they will, we avoid the god awful deal but put ourselves at risk of an eventual no deal exit, but initially a likely further extension - and the whole circus rolls on for further months. It might never end.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2019
  13. Dan

    DannyWilsonLovechild Well-Known Member

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    There may not be anything to debate tomorrow as the treaty is said to be illegal contravening the a 2018 act that states all parts of the Union to be treated the same, which clearly this agreement does not do with the unique nature of Ireland.

    It continues to worry me, not that this govt keeps trying to push through illegal at worst and under scrutinised at best, legislation and agreement.... but that there is such scorn of leave leaning voters to decry democracy and legality as a bad thing.
     
  14. Sco

    Scoff Well-Known Member

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    The 2018 amendment to the NI Finance Bill was put forward by one JRM - which was next level trolling.

    Dominic Raab was this morning extolling the virtues of NI having frictionless access to the SM, which is good for NI. However, Scotland will have a big argument about why they can't have exactly the same access to the SM. So what is good for NI, is bad for the rest of the UK and makes disintegration of the UK more likely - If Scotland gets it (or independence), then why can't Wales? or Wessex? Danish Mercia?
     
  15. Dan

    DannyWilsonLovechild Well-Known Member

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    The republic of Londinium!!!
     
  16. Sam Barn

    Sam Barn Active Member

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    If all our representative MP's were to follow the #Brexit vote from their constituencies, then we should get the following result on Saturday - Leave 406, Remain 242. Let's have a free vote so MP's can rightly represent the wishes of their constituents !
     
  17. Marlon

    Marlon Well-Known Member

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    You can be for Brexit but against a Tory Led deal ,so if a labour mp voted against this Tory deal they wouldn’t be voting against their constituents .
     
  18. dreamboy3000

    dreamboy3000 Well-Known Member

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    So voters know which MPs haven't done what's expected of them so they can vote for someone else next chance they get.
     
  19. Dan

    DannyWilsonLovechild Well-Known Member

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    can constituents ever be wrong, uninformed, unaware of implication?
     
  20. Sco

    Scoff Well-Known Member

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    Nigel Farage describes this deal as putting "Lipstick on a pig", can you even guarantee that pro-leave MPs will support it? - The DUP are against it and it appears the Brexit Party...
     

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