Not Brexit

If the treacherous filth that now infest the House of Commons vote ja for Borris's deal, to try partly save their own political skins.
The only certain thing about this deal is, it's Brexit in name only.
If they have half an ounce of integrity they'd throw this new .... Mrs May's deal with bells on... out the door.

So I'd totally expect it to go through

But make no mistake, history will show that Boris was just as much a puppet of the establishment as Mrs May,. Just a better conman.

Definitely Not Brexit this deal..

 

Do you not think that on such a close vote in 2016 an element of compromise is called for? Hopefully it gives some scope to reverse the whole thing when it's realised what a dreadful decision it was in the first place (in my opinion). But we might be the 51st State by then!

 

Can I just ask a genuine question as you seem more clued up than me...

I watch the news, but I don't really have the time to dig any deeper than that, but do we actually know what this 'deal' or any other previous rejected 'deal' actually entails?

Because, for me, it just feels like our whole futures are in the hands of a bunch of people who do not have OUR best interests at heart.

 

Withdraw from the institutions. Honour what we have committed to pay for the current EU budget period. Status quo for the transition period up to the end of 2020. Northern Ireland to remain partially in the customs union but also in the UK single market in that period or beyond. A free trade agreement to be negotiated after we have officially left. The latter means that if no agreement is negotiated in the transition period then we could still effectively leave on no deal terms after December 2020. That last bit is what Oliver Letwin and others are trying to avoid by either moving amendments today or alternatively voting the whole thing down.

And by the way, you are right (in my opinion).

 

Thanks for, well, for basically putting it in simple terms for me.
I think people's attitudes are now leaning towards 'deal or no deal, let's just get this thing over with'.

And I appreciate the reply.

 

That's a pretty reasonable overall assessment in my view...I was always of the view that May's deal was never as bad as it was painted, and a sizeable number of Labour MP's now recognise that...this suggestion of Brexit in name only is not correct...you are either in or out of the political institutions the rest is purely down to what future relationship you want with Europe.
Like you I think it's counter productive not to align with legislation that most are not unhappy with....however if Johnson is a clever politician he could well pull a number of Labour MP's on board by agreeing ( in the horse trading that's taking place prior to the vote ) not to change the status quo whilst he is PM.

 

That is all it was ever about - that and a lucrative trading opportunity for their rich chums. The idea that we can strike better trade deals than an EU trading bloc with something like eight times the population and GDP is and always was pure fantasy. Too few people remember living standards before our entry in 1973. Heath and McMillan before him knew that we needed to pool our sovereignty (not forego it) to be part of something bigger if we were to stand up economically to the USA and Russia. Now it is against USA and China. We will not be equal partners with those countries if striking a big trade deal with them unlike our present position within the EU.

 

Also, according to Phillip Hammond, if MPs vote today to approve the Deal then the Benn Act is fulfilled but if the Deal does not make it all the way through Parliament by the 31st then we’ll leave by default with No Deal in 2 weeks. He’s proposing voting it down to get an extension and then Johnson can bring it back and probably get it to pass.

 

Pooling our Sovereignty is a phrase invented to disguise loss of Sovereignty...Tony Benn exposed that fifty years ago.

 

If we had lost our sovereignty then we wouldn't now be in a position to leave, would we?

 

There was no way to leave when Heath signed us up...as his Cabinet papers said clearly that if we could be kept in for 15 years it would be impossible to leave...only when Article 50 was written in the 2000's? did a mechanism become available...the key British (ironically) author said when they added it in they never thought it could, or would be implemented by anyone.

 

If that were correct then there wouldn't have been a referendum in 1975.

 

I just feel really sad that they're being asked to do the impossible - leave the EU without destroying a lot of people's livelihoods. Maybe its the opportunity for a different economic model - one not based on the old ways, debt, money, growth - and move to one based on corporation and community? That would be something worth fighting for, unfortunately I think we're going to get more of the same - with the corresponding issues - more crime, more suicides, more broken families, more hate, more selfishness.

 

Further to my point above:



I hope to god no Labour MP falls for this.

 

At face value I take your point..but there was no formal mechanism to leave....but in my view it's the 15 year clause in Heath's calculations that are important...he took us in with no consultation and had he remained in power that would have taken us into deeper integration and loss of the original negotiated veto's that were important in getting it through the commons...fortunately Labour ( in the main) had a number of prominent politicians who wouldn't let it lie unchallenged, particularly in view of the fact that the UK was the only nation who joined in 1973 without putting it to the people.

 

This thread illustrates something. It has not been riven with much of the vitreol that has marked any brexit debate on here from both sides. It has a much more concilliatory tone. I think the deal we have now is a compromise - it was always going to be so. But it is a deal. A way forward and we can move on if MPs back it. Everybody from all sides would harrumph about something they didnt like but in a year or two it would be forgotten. MPs have a real opportunity to serve their country today - just do the deal and let's move on

 

The really sad thing is both labour and Tory governments either refused through arrogance or didn’t have the ability to properly address the concerns of the British public regarding the negative aspects of eu membership. Had these things been tackled then ukip wouldn’t have even existed and shithouse Cameron wouldn’t have even been in a position to bet red or black on a referendum.
The country is in this position because of the ineptitude of successive governments and their failure to take on board what increasing numbers of the country wanted from the eu rather than putting their own careers and precious parties first.
The only way I can see us ridding these out of touch Tory Tim nice but dims is for people to recognise the death of the Labour Party and a requirement for something new that we can all buy in to.

 

I honestly do not think the vote was really about the EU. After two decades of UK government neglect and 6 years of austerity, people were effectively asked if they were happy with their lives. Unsurprisingly, people in places like Barnsley said no. Unfortunately, they will simply end up in an even worse situation. Great shame.

 

The EU of course had many issues that were not addressed by dumb 'im alright jack' liberals and Tories. If you lived in an inner city suburb that had seen your local services go down the pan due to austerity and an increasing number of foreign workers living in your area then it's not surprising people blamed them for (eg) not been able to get a GP appointment for weeks, especially when this was formented by right-wing media. Pro-EU middle class oiks dont understand that of course, or dont want to understand it. They're too busy worrying about how they'll ever get a job in *insert chosen EU destination here*.

That alone shows the schism in this country. It's divided by wealth from top to bottom and those at the bottom have again been led a merry dance by those at the top to believe that the EU is responsible for all their problems. I'd agree, its has serious structural issues, but those responsible are the governments who have ignored them and kept wealth in the hands of the few.

I really worry what a Tory right-wing government will do with Brexit since it would give them free reign to do as they wish given a positive election result.

I dont want to go all shouty, but I will. WAKE THE **** UP!