If only someone had thought of this.

Discussion in 'Bulletin Board' started by Tyketical Masterstroke, Jan 14, 2021.

  1. Jay

    Jay Well-Known Member

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    The vulnerable are locked down now. As is everyone else. Only in this version you get fined for arranging to go see them and talk through a glass window.

    I have answered this numerous times. Put the finance and manpower into the development of rapid testing that means people aren't isolated, they're protected. Protection doesn't mean isolation.
     
  2. Tek

    Tekkytyke Well-Known Member

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    This thread is mental. Not quite at the level of QAnon or Trump supporting 'Stop the Steal' Republicans but worryingly close!

    P.S.......Jay. A question!

    in response to Skryptics post i.e. "You fundamentally don't understand the concept of a vaccine. A vaccine increases the body's ability to fight infection by essentially giving it practice in fighting the disease. Those who are "immune" will still get the disease. Their bodies should simply be better equipped to fight it off, and they will display no symptoms. The outlying 5% may still show symptoms, but they should experience milder symptoms as their body has had practice fighting off the virus. Some won't, and may even die.To say the vaccines aren't vaccines is ridiculous."

    You responded (without explanation) with......

    "Everything in this is incorrect"

    Why do you say that? What he said is essentially correct. Some vaccines stop you getting symptomatic disease, but others stop you getting infected too. The latter is known as “sterilising immunity”. With sterilising immunity, the virus can't even gain a toehold in the body because the immune system stops the virus entering cells and replicating
     
  3. Jay

    Jay Well-Known Member

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    If you're immune to a disease you don't get the disease. That's what immunity is. There is no other definition. You don't get milder symptoms, you don't get the disease. If you do you're not immune. Hence the response. Nothing he wrote was correct, it was written from a point of completely misunderstanding what immunity is.
     
  4. BarnsleyReds

    BarnsleyReds Well-Known Member

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    But the difference is by locking down everyone the goal is to prevent community transmission and lower the likelihood of the most vulnerable catching the virus when they do have to interact with the ‘outside world’. Because they do have to.

    And just for the record I don’t agree with fining people going to see their relatives through a window. I do agree with fining people that blatantly flaunt the rules for non-essential reasons though. Visiting relatives through a window is an essential reason to me.

    I completely understand the argument that lockdowns do more harm than good. I don’t agree with it, but I’m open to the idea and I can completely see where that argument comes from. It’s a very fine line. What I don’t understand is the suggestion that lockdowns just don’t work in stopping the spread of the virus. That just doesn’t make sense to me from a logical point of view. Stopping people interacting = less transmission vectors. It seems really logical, what am I missing?
     
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  5. BarnsleyReds

    BarnsleyReds Well-Known Member

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    Surely immunity just means your body fights it off quickly because it already has antibodies? To be honest I didn’t respond before because when I read the posts I realise that maybe I didn’t understand how vaccines work. But my understanding is that they just give you the antibodies which allows your body to fight it off? It makes sense to me that in the time between you getting the virus and your body fighting it off (however quick that is) you can transmit it?
     
  6. blivy

    blivy Well-Known Member

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    This is also a load of ********.

    How can you believe that lockdowns have not saved lives. Lockdown = fewer contacts = fewer infections = fewer deaths.

    The current lockdown has enabled us to buy some time while we vaccinate the most at risk. Had we let it rip through the population before we vaccinate the 15 million in the high priority groups we would have ended up with 100,000s of more deaths. But instead, we lockdown until they’ve been vaccinated and save so many lives.

    It’s impossible to guarantee that if you lock up the elderly none of them will get infected. There have been strict infection controls in place in care homes, and yet there were still numerous outbreaks when the national prevalence was about 1 in 200. Let the virus rip through the population and it would be impossible to keep it out of care homes.
     
  7. Jay

    Jay Well-Known Member

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    I haven't mentioned transmission. I've said immunity means you don't get the disease. That you don't get it, that the virus is prevented from replicating in your body, I would suggest considerably limits your likelihood to pass on the virus to others. Whether that's to the point where it reduces the possibility to nil, I don't know, few things are ever one hundred percent, but I would imagine the risk is much reduced.
     
  8. Tyk

    Tyketical Masterstroke Well-Known Member

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    I’m sorry, but that’s just nonsense. Those figures you are quoting are utter fantastical nonsense straight from the Excel of Ferguson, which have been discredited time and time and time and time and time and time again. All it does is cause a temporary delay. I suggest you read the following peer-reviewed documents from respected scientists in respected journals - I’ll tell you what - you provide me similar from your side - proper, scientific, peer reviewed theses stating that the millions your lockdowns left unemployed, the domestic violence it enabled and the mental health crisis were entering were worth it - and I promise you I’ll read them.
    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(20)30208-X/fulltext

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/eci.13484

    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.22.20160341v3
    https://advance.sagepub.com/article..._the_effectiveness_of_interventions_/12362645
    https://arxiv.org/pdf/2005.02090.pdf
    https://www.datascienceassn.org/sites/default/files/Illusory%20Effects%20of%20Non-pharmaceutical%20Interventions%20on%20COVID1https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.20088260v29%20in%20Europe.pdf
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.20088260v2
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.24.20078717v1
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.26.20202267v1
    https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m3588
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.30.20047860v3

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2652751/


    https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3607803

     
  9. blivy

    blivy Well-Known Member

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    Under your definition of immunity, there are no vaccines that give anyone immunity. As has already been said, vaccines improve your ability to fight off infection before it prevents serious disease. The most effective vaccines mean you fight it off before you experience any symptoms. You still have the virus in your body.

    I posted the below in another thread in response to a similar point you made:

    Disease” is the illness a virus causes. It is the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus that infects cells which causes the COVID-19 disease. The ability to prevent disease (not infection) is a vaccine’s efficacy.

    Just as an aside, its difficult to compare efficacy of different vaccines as it depends where you set the bar for preventing disease (mild symptoms vs severe symptoms). For example, the Astra Zeneca vaccine has a lower reported efficacy than the Pfizer vaccine, but in the AZ trials no patients were hospitalised.

    The vaccine trials were not designed to measure the impact of the vaccine on transmissibility, only their ability to prevent disease. So when the scientists say there’s no evidence to suggest it prevents transmission, that’s not the same as saying it doesn’t prevent transmission. Indeed, the expectation is that it will prevent transmission to a degree, we just don’t know how much yet. Therefore if you’ve been vaccinated you still have to be careful until we understand more.

    I admit I’m no expert, but my understanding is that transmissibility depends on a person’s viral load, which is the amount of virus they have in their body. A virus works by attaching to and entering cells. It replicates inside cells and creates more versions of the virus which go onto infect more cells. It is the accumulation of infected cells that eventually causes the COVID-19 disease.

    The new variant of SARS-CoV-2 is more transmissible as it is more “sticky” (more likely to attach to cells) and can more easily enter cells (i.e. “unlock” them). Therefore, people who catch the new variant have a higher viral load, and therefore when they breathe/cough the air droplets contain more of the virus.

    Vaccines generally work by priming the immune system so it already has antibodies that can attach to and neutralise infected cells. This prevents them from creating copies of the virus so they can’t infect other cells. The fewer infected cells, the less viral replication, the lower the viral load and the lower the transmissibility (as well as the reduced likelihood of severe disease).

    However, whilst the antibodies will prevent too many cells becoming infected with the virus to cause severe disease, there will be a period of time where the person still has some viral load, before the antibodies have had chance to neutralise all/enough of the infected cells. It is during this initial period that you could still pass on the virus, even if the vaccine means you have sufficient antibodies to prevent severe disease. The question is how quickly will the immune response activated by the vaccine reduce viral load
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2021
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  10. Tek

    Tekkytyke Well-Known Member

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    With respect you are oversimplifying what immunity is in medical terms. There are various levels of immunity iwhich is what my post stated. So you don't agree with the medical definition of 'sterilising immunity' and the two types of vaccination responses then?

    Are you a medical expert? I admit I am not but I lifted that from the medical documentation on the internet so who am I to argue with it? You, on the other hand seem to want to dispute it.
     
  11. Jay

    Jay Well-Known Member

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    You're mistaking a virus entering your body from contracting the disease. Immunity means you fight off the infection before it can infect enough cells to cause any symptoms. If a vaccine does not do this it has an efficacy of zero. That's not to say it's not without merit but it doesn't give immunity.
     
  12. blivy

    blivy Well-Known Member

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  13. BarnsleyReds

    BarnsleyReds Well-Known Member

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    Yes. Delay. Until there’s a vaccine.

    Which is what we’ve done, what the thing posted in your OP says. Completely different from what you’ve been asking for.
     
  14. Jay

    Jay Well-Known Member

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    I never mentioned sterilising immunity, you did, and I didn't say I disagreed with it, so not sure what this in response to.
     
  15. Sup

    SuperTyke Well-Known Member

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    Could it not be argued that delaying the spread from spring and summer when hospitals are much quieter to winter when they are always at breaking point was an absolutely mental strategy that actually cost lives?
     
  16. blivy

    blivy Well-Known Member

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    It’s not as simple as “you have the disease” or “you do not have the disease”, or “you have symptoms” and “you do not have symptoms”.
    It’s a not binary, it’s a sliding scale. Therefore it’s not the case that “you are immune” or “you are not immune”.

    The reason it’s difficult to compare efficacy of vaccines is because there’s different definitions of what constitutes efficacy.
     
  17. Tek

    Tekkytyke Well-Known Member

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    The best response I have seen recently regarding controversy over lockdown.. right or wrong?..
    The virus does not travel to you... you travel to it!

    In short ........virus infects host... host either kills virus or virus kills host....either way it is end of virus.......UNLESS: in the interim it can find another host to infect.

    The inescapable logic is - deprive it of an opportunity to jump to another host and it cannot replicate. Reduce contact reduce replication. FFS how difficult is that for people to grasp.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2021
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  18. BarnsleyReds

    BarnsleyReds Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I inferred the transmission point wrongly, apologies.

    To be honest I’m unsure if the vaccine is against the virus or the disease, I suppose it doesn’t matter really. Either way I don’t believe the vaccine stops you getting the disease, just allows you to fight it off quicker. The virus will still replicate as it usually does, the only difference is instead of your immune system having to detect and understand the virus/disease and then create the antibodies it already knows about it so can fight it off a lot faster. Right?
     
  19. Wat

    Watcher_Of_The_Skies Well-Known Member

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    Hh
    Have you got evidence to back this up?
     
  20. Sup

    SuperTyke Well-Known Member

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    How can someone provide evidence that there's no evidence of something?
     

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