Minority Report - Wigan Athletic

Discussion in 'Bulletin Board ARCHIVE' started by Red Rain, Nov 19, 2016.

  1. Red

    Red Rain Well-Known Member

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    It takes two to Tango. You are right. I have just finished watching Strictly Come Dancing, but the phrase also applies to this afternoon’s game. You see Wigan came to keep a clean sheet, and with only 2 Barnsley shots on target, that will not be a surprise to anyone. After the last home game against Bristol City, I said what a pleasure it was to see two teams playing open 4-4-2 systems. Today the two teams showed that 4-4-2 does not always result in a good game.

    Of course, plenty of the players in Red had poor games. In fact let’s be honest, most of the players in Red had poor games. But these reports concentrate not on who did good and who did bad. We can all see that. They concentrate on formations, systems and patterns of play and once again, that is where I intend to concentrate.

    Against Bristol City, who played a narrow diamond, our wingers were involved in all of our best moments. Today, they were largely kept in check. Many will point to Kent and say what a poor game he had, and they will be right, but there are some mitigating factors. For a start, he is having to play on the left to allow Watkins to play on the right, and secondly, it is now well known that Barnsley rely heavily on their wide players, and most teams (except Bristol City) are now planning how they will deal with that threat. Kent in particular, constantly faced two defenders, and in fairness, they took him out of the game. I expected PH to try swapping the wingers over, but he just sat on his hands until he reached for Hammill’s number to remove Kent.

    Our two central midfield players played deep most of the time, so when PH criticises Warren Joyce for picking a negative team and structure, he is ignoring the fact that we were also very cautious. Consequently, Hourihane had one of his least effective games for the club. When Winnall dropped deep in order to provide an extra man for a one two, he either misplaced his pass or hit it back to the passer and no ground was made. On the odd occasion when he did link up, he found that because his marker had not followed him, even if one of our midfield players did find themselves free in the hole between the Wigan defensive and midfield lines, there was no-one to pass to. Armstrong is superb when he has the space to use his pace, but he is never going to be on the end of crosses hit in his general direction. In my view, Armstrong is more of a threat away from home because he will have more space on the break and can use his pace more effectively.

    The game was crying out for a change of direction. Frankly, it was crying out for a big man to act as the central hub in the wheel. And finally, I have got to the main point of this report. Currently, we have one way of doing things, and all of the players that have been brought to the club, have been scouted in order to play the same way. But there are times when our opponents will chose not to play the game that we want them to, a way that does not suit our patterns of play so well. Today, it was not the case that we needed a change of formation. We dominated possession of the ball. Today we needed to play in a way that did not rely so heavily on the wide players. Today we needed to go down the middle. Today we needed a Chris O’Grady type who would allow us to play in a different way. Winnall and Armstrong are at their best when they play on the shoulder of the last defender, but Wigan stopped the service. They erected a midfield screen that denied us that final pass at that favourable angle that gives the forwards a chance. When that happens, your team must have another way, and we do not seem to have another way. Be that converting to a midfield 5 when we are unable to get our share of the ball, or utilising a big man when our wide players are ineffective.

    Of course, a goal would have changed the game, and Wigan had Will Grigg, Adam Le Fondre and Craig Davies on the bench, just in case they had to change their strategy. In the event, they had to use 2 subs to cover for injuries, so a goal would have left them with nowhere to go. But it is interesting that they had options that allowed them to change the way that they were doing things, but we did not. I look forward to changes in this respect in the January transfer window and I will be disappointed if nothing happens.
     
  2. Ors

    Orsen Kaht Guest

    I think that having lost his first game in charge, Warren Joyce was determined not to lose his second. I don't think we did too much wrong, but things didn't come off for us today. That will happen sometimes. I do however think that we played a shade too many long hopeful balls out instead of getting the ball more to feet - where our strength lies.
     
  3. Brush

    Brush Well-Known Member

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    Reasonable summing up, it would be nice to have a Trevor Aylott type of player up top to change things round a bit.
     
  4. Farnham_Red

    Farnham_Red Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    Or an Ashley Fletcher
     
  5. Brush

    Brush Well-Known Member

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    He'd do at a push....
     
  6. Red

    Red Rain Well-Known Member

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    Further comment on the Wigan game

    Re-reading the comments that I made after the Wigan game, I have realised that the conclusion that I drew ended up at exactly the same set of buffers that I usually meet. Usually, my route to that point would go through the need to play an extra midfield player in order to get a decent share of possession, a problem that was not apparent on Saturday. The logic would flounder when it reached the point of deciding upon a lone forward, because there is no-one on the Barnsley books capable of playing in that role at home. Arguably, Armstrong can play that role in away games, but not in the traditional way in which I mean. The normal role of a lone forward is to act as a hub, through which play is routed and Armstrong cannot play that way because he is too small and he does not have the strength to hold off his marker.

    Many on the BBS believe that 4-4-2 is the way to go, and any other system is anathema to them. They quote slow build up play and passing across the line of the back four as their evidence. But as we saw on Saturday, 4-4-2 is no guarantee that those things cannot happen, and the explanation comes from the way that the opposition set up. No team deliberately sets up to play forward slowly. It is well known that speed on the break is one of the keys to breaking down a defensive structure. No, slow forward momentum and keep ball are reactions to an opposition that is defensively set, and which is denying the players ahead of the ball the space they need in order to create.

    The use of wide players is a reaction to the lack of space down the centre of the field. It represents an acceptance that the cover in the centre restricts the room available to our central midfield players. It is a system that attempts to make use of the extra space available to the wide players when the opposition concentrate on denying space in the centre. It is considered that pace is an important resource in a wide player, because once the full back is beaten, the wide player needs to create a favourable angle for the cross to create the best chance for the central players, and that angle involves crossing from close to the goal line. However, if a team becomes known for attacking to the outside, then the opposition will move their players to defend in that area and they become potentially weaker elsewhere, and that is what happened on Saturday. It makes no difference who our wide players are in those circumstances. You could have any combination of Hammill, Kent, Watkins or Janko. You can have any combination of full backs including Bree, White, Kpekawa or Yiadom. If the opposition is set up to defend out wide, they will be strong there and correspondingly weak elsewhere. The discussion on the BBS since Saturday has been mostly about which combination of full backs and wingers would be the best. It has totally missed the point that Wigan set up to defend out wide, and because of that they would have been easier to attack elsewhere.

    So what did PH do about that theoretical weakness? Well he did not do much, to be honest. He kept our two central midfield players deep for most of the game. Scowen did make the occasional break, but when he burst through the line of the midfield, he found himself isolated, with no-one in position to take a pass. Scowen has been criticised on here for his indecisiveness, but there was simply no-one near him in any space. Hourihane’s effectiveness appeared to have been limited because he had been instructed to stay goal-side of the ball and maintain contact with our central defenders. He was not even taking corners from the left side. It was as if PH had suddenly resolved to reduce the number of goals that we concede by ensuring that we keep our defensive shape no matter what. We played that way against Derby and QPR earlier in the season, and we won both of those games, but the difference was that we put away a chance, and when you do that, the game opens up. If you like, this piece is a criticism that because we did not score the game never opened up. It is a bit like the argument about which came first, the chicken or the egg.

    As I said on Saturday, my stuff tends not to be a critique of individual players. It tends to be an investigation of systems, formations and patterns of play. As I said at the start, when I reviewed what I had written, I was surprised that ultimately, I had arrived at the same conclusion, but from a different direction. I was surprised that the solution that I had found was that we need a big guy up front. I had rejected the idea of a 5 man midfield because I felt that we had the lion’s share of possession, without giving the time to thinking it through and without realising that the same 11 players are in different positions in say a 4-1-4-1 formation. With Morsy unable to play, this system was also beyond our resources, so I am discussing it only for future reference. With Morsy behind Hourihane and Scowen, their positions change. They can get much further forward in support of the lone forward, forming a cohesive three up front rather than the two in the 4-4-2 system. So rather than 4-5-1 being defensive, it becomes more attacking. The current system of choice in the Premier League is 3-4-3. Last season Wigan took us by surprise with this system and won the game at Oakwell at a canter. Like all systems, it has different defensive and attacking structures. 3-4-3 describes its attacking structure. Defensively it is nearer 5-4-1. It requires greater flexibility from the players but it can work very well. There are many other systems currently being deployed, but only 4-4-2 and 3-5-2 allow for two forward players. The rebuilding process that began two seasons ago has concentrated upon a system with two players up front, and because of that, we do not have a player capable of playing on his own up front. Those who say that Payne can do it have never seen him play in that system and make no allowance for the fact that he is still learning his trade at league level.

    For me, this over-concentration on 4-4-2 has painted us into a corner. Our search for players in January needs to be an attempt to break out of the strait-jacket of our own design. I am not saying that we should necessarily start with a different system, but it would be nice to have a choice.
     
  7. Sup

    SuperTyke Well-Known Member

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    We do have a choice. We have many choices.

    We could play 5 across the middle easily. We could play 3 in the middle also. We could play just one up front, or two, or three. We could play 3 at the back, 4 or 5. Those players are already at the club
     
  8. Brush

    Brush Well-Known Member

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    Not wanting to belittle what you say but this is this one of the main the problems with football today. It's a simple game and the more simply you play it the more successful you are. Over thinking these strategies and tactics results in players having too much to think about and getting confused as to where they should be and what they should be doing. Play it simple, pass to your team mates, find space when we've got the ball and mark your opponents when they've got it.
     
  9. Mrs

    MrsHallsToffeerolls Well-Known Member

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    Aye its played on a green field not a black and white checquered one or a colourful zonal one either.
     
  10. blivy

    blivy Well-Known Member

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    This makes no sense. Where should you team mates be when you pass to them? By play it simple do you mean along the back? When the opposition sits in there is no space, what do you do then? If it was a simple game, why is it the same managers are consistently successful?
     
  11. Prince of Risborough

    Prince of Risborough Well-Known Member

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    The thing that drives me crazy, and it's not just us that does it, is when a midfield player gets the ball in space and instead of looking for a forward, or at least a diagonal pass, he simply lays it off a few yards to someone close by, usually a defender.

    I'm not picking on CH in particular but he does it often. What on earth is the point in giving away possession to, for example, Marc Roberts? He is a rock solid defender. Picking out a good pass is not his strength so what usually happens is that he launches it up field and the opposition gobble it up, and then it comes back into our half. Some games earlier in the season this negative tactic was missing. I've only seen the first half of the Wigan game so far but it seemed like it was a regular thing on Saturday and I found myself shouting at my screen while watching it!

    As I said, it's not just us that do it. The top players do it as well so maybe it's a "modern football" thing. It's infuriating though. Players like CH are in the team to do good things on the ball. Laying off a five yard pass to your centre half is NOT a good thing. The coaches will obviously argue that this is how an attack is built. Well, ok, what do I know? All I do know is that it is not good to watch and generates a very pedestrian style of play. We don't have the skill in our side to suddenly click up two gears within a move with a couple of slick passes. We do have good players though, all over the pitch. I just wish that this sideways or backwards passing stuff would stop!!
     
  12. Mrs

    MrsHallsToffeerolls Well-Known Member

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    You make space by movement and pulling defenders out of position, trouble is we see a lack of movement regularly throw ins especially.

    Or God forbid a player actually beating an opponent one on one.
     
  13. Prince of Risborough

    Prince of Risborough Well-Known Member

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    In all my decades of watching Barnsley I have NEVER seen us adopt a good throw in technique. Most of the time, when we have a throw, there is no one to throw it to. They just don't move around to give the thrower options.
     
  14. Mrs

    MrsHallsToffeerolls Well-Known Member

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    Winnall came off the front post to 3 feet from the thrower to receive the ball and give it him back whilst 2 players stood still with their markers. Happens regularly, thank the lord for the Roberts long throw.
     
  15. Redstar

    Redstar Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Another example was I think in the second half. Roberts or Jackson had possession and passed it to Davies who proceeded to launch it. Either of Roberts or Jackson could have done so!
     
  16. Farnham_Red

    Farnham_Red Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    Me and my dad regularly have this conversation - I really cant believe we ever practice them.
    The one that is particularly infuriating is when a player under no pressure lets the ball run out, when he could easily keep it in and have time and space. Then best case scenario is its thrown to a nearby player who passes it back but this time the thrower is surrounded by opposition players and either loses the ball or has to do a hurried hoof upfield
     
  17. Dja

    Django Well-Known Member

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    I know what you're saying but the idea is that when there's not a forward pass on for Hourihane or Scowen they pass sideways / backwards to try & encourage the opposing side to press up the pitch, easier said than done against a team as negative as Wigan though
     
  18. Prince of Risborough

    Prince of Risborough Well-Known Member

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    You may be right but it just looks to me like players would rather give someone else the responsibility of distributing the ball. It goes right up to international level. I'm not suggesting that it's only us that play like that. There might well be some kind of method in it but I don't like seeing it.
     

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