Minority Report - Nottingham Forest

Discussion in 'Bulletin Board ARCHIVE' started by Red Rain, Nov 25, 2016.

  1. Red

    Red Rain Well-Known Member

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    I have just listened to the after match interview with PH and I am pleased to hear a very sensible and down to earth account of the game. He is right when he says that individual errors cost us the game, but we also made an additional 4 errors that did not cost us goals. A team that makes so many errors cannot hope to win a game, no matter what system we play, so tonight there will be no talk about systems.

    For purposes of record the mistakes were;

    1. Keeper gets beat on his side, that is, the side that he is standing at a free kick.
    2. Hourihane does not stay with his man who hits a cross to the near post.
    3. Scowen falls over the ball leaving the wide player to run through and cross.
    4. Jackson misjudges a header, gets under a ball then falls and injures himself, taking himself out of the game and leaving us one short at the back.
    5. The next is a penalty, and whilst I think it was a very harsh decision by the ref, the fact is that there was no need to make a challenge.

    As I say, I counted at least 4 more mistakes that were not punished. It is the worst defensive display in quite some time. I am also with PH when he refuses to blame the referee. Personally, I did not agree with the award of the penalty or the sending off, but neither decision affected the eventual outcome. I also remarked at half time that our wide players were too narrow. The weakness in the 3-5-2 system is the wing backs, and particularly the space behind them. But our wingers were to be found falling over our two forwards, and getting in the way of our centre midfield players when they should have been giving us width. The fact that PH made mention of it in his post-match report is not as important as what he intends to do about it, because those players were there because they were in their comfort zones. They played for themselves and not the team. Finally, PH is right. It was a wake-up call, and if the players are not playing as instructed, then it should be a wake-up call for them too.

    So what did we learn tonight, or do we just forget the game as fast as we can and move on. After all, we had kept clean sheets in the two games prior. For me the early part of the season was played in a cup tie spirit. The players all gave something extra, but they also had some luck. It would be easy to write off this result as an aberration, but if you view it in the context of home performances for the season, the team has not won a home game since 27 August when they beat Rotherham 4-0. That is three draws and 4 losses. The phrase fortress Oakwell looks more and more like sarcasm as each game passes. I criticised those who repeatedly see the results as an indication that the wrong players are being chosen. For me it is obvious that the problem goes deeper than that, and whilst I agree that the problem tonight was individual errors, PH has said the self-same thing after every goal that we have conceded this season. The time has come to say that a solution must be found, and tonight a few of the players were just not up to the level that is required in this league. Harsh but true.

    I do not intend to go any further tonight because I am upset. I have seen my team beaten badly by a Forest side that was, quite frankly, not very good. The January transfer window looks crucial to our chances of staying in this division.
     
  2. Redstar

    Redstar Well-Known Member

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    Good post. And we did not help ourselves with stilly silly passing in the wrong areas then slow slow passing when trying to attack.
     
  3. Farnham_Red

    Farnham_Red Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    Must admit I can't find much to disagree with in that post today
    and you are right there were as many more errors we got away with

    january is going to be massive for us. Need to repeat the trick we pulled last time with 3or 4 key changes
     
  4. Jam

    Jamo Well-Known Member

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    I suspect this will turn out to be a majority report. I agree with every word.
     
  5. MarioKempes

    MarioKempes Well-Known Member

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    I completely agree with your report RR.
     
  6. Dja

    Django Well-Known Member

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    I agree with everything you've said except the January transfer window bit, whilst a few fans are losing their heads panicking, Hecky & the board won't be.

    There's a clear strategy to improve our players, we simply can't compete with at least three quarters of the league financially.

    I'm pretty certain we'll not be going out & signing 5 loanees in January for a quick fix. The aim will be to make sure that the players are better players in April than they were in August.

    I've no fears over relegation. None of Rotherham, Wigan, Burton & Blackburn are finishing above us
     
  7. YTB

    YTBFC Guest

    Freak game. We'd not lost in six weeks.

    We'll be fine. Staying up was always the mission. We are on course to achieve that.

    You Reds.
     
  8. 55&counting

    55&counting Well-Known Member

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    Well said whitey. How quickly folk forget.
    Dear Red Rain - from realist to pessimist in 90 minutes. Oh and I see you don't want to talk tactics but 442 still isn't 41212.
     
  9. YTB

    YTBFC Guest

    I'm as disappointed as the next man with tonight. I felt we were the better side first half but after the interval we strayed from the things we are good at, stopped doing what was working. It was poor second half. The ref was clearly biased. Which doesn't help. And Forest had a night where everything fell nicely for them. So aye, disappointed. But analysing players and systems and recruitment strategies etc, doubting certain players' commitment, only focusing on the negative stats... not for me that.

    Ive seen some call certain players an embarrassment, weak as piss, some are calling for big changes. It's hilarious to read. We've lost our first game since Newcastle. We are mid table in the Championship. Cast your mind back 12 months. Or post a day later. Perspective is ace.
     
  10. Ors

    Orsen Kaht Guest

    I'm with Red Rain's assessment too. Some random thoughts for debate:

    1. Concentration in defence is everything. On several occasions we were all over the shop.
    2. James Bree looks a very good prospect for his age once he gets beyond the final third of the pitch. Closer to our own goal he is often out of position and often leaves too much room for opponents down the wings.
    3. Adam Hammill is considerably less effective at Championship level. His skills have been well-advertised and our opponents are alive to the need to mark him closely. He is struggling to overcome this against the better sides. Even though he may not like it, his future may lay as an impact player in this league.
    4. Given the size and shape of our strikers, our game requires quick accurate passing on the floor to play to our strengths. Armstrong must be tearing his hair out at the lack of service. Sam too is not getting the service he needs given his lack of pace for this level.
    5. Given that both Bree and Yiadom look better going forward, I'd be up for us experimenting with 3-5-2 now. We have enough candidates at centre back for this, and a bit more presence in midfield might help us to establish the link play with the forwards that is currently lacking. I freely admit I've been a die-hard supporter of the 4-4-2 up to now, but something needs to change. We need to find answers in midfield before Conor departs in the Summer.
    6. We have won only one game since Tommy Wright's departure.
     
  11. Brush

    Brush Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I thought it very strange that after the 2 goals in the first half that both came from crosses down his side of the pitch he got man of the match.... Can't get my head round that one.
     
  12. Redstar

    Redstar Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I called Jackson weak as piss. because, in my opinion, he is. I don't know why he is in the side. But having said that, hecky has earnt the right to make his own mistakes. I also don't understand why Scowen stayed in. I think Morsy is better. We seem to have reverted to this god awful tapping it around at the back and I've no idea why. Hope it is a blip becuase its pap.

    We coudl be three points out of the bottom 3 after today. That is why folk are worried.
     
  13. Sopwith Camel

    Sopwith Camel Well-Known Member

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    " The January transfer window looks crucial to our chances of staying in this division"

    One or two of us have been saying this for a while... But if you listen to Heckys latest interview he states that he does not envisage much action in January.
    Its been clear since last season momentum hit a brick wall that the players we have now will not keep us in the championship.. And expecting coaches to turn non-league and lower league players into championship players and above, on a regular basis, is folly,

    This is not a personnel attack on the players... it is not their fault, they are only as good as they are..
     
  14. jedstar

    jedstar Well-Known Member

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    Fine margins in that game despite the result, their second seemed quite fortune to loop in, we were so on top in the first half that if that one had stayed out we could have got one or two more and then the second half is completely different.

    The goal in injury time totally flattened our players, Forest came out looking like a rejuvenated team while we couldn't string two passes together.

    I thought Bree did well in the main but Janko's attacking play was encouraging, if he didn't beat the man on the edge of the box then we generally got a corner out of it.
     
  15. 55&counting

    55&counting Well-Known Member

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    Ai thought so too. A match in which we were in control until the 55th 60th minute. We are a good team and don't become a bad one overnight.
     
  16. North Yorks Red

    North Yorks Red Well-Known Member

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    we might have been knocking the ball about but its stretching it to say we were in control of a match that at that point we had conceded 3 goals and were losing!
     
  17. 55&counting

    55&counting Well-Known Member

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    Opinions eh?
    It is possible to have conceded 3 goals and still be in control. All depends on your definition of control. Last night, in my opinion, we played really well up to a point. Their goals were largely down to split second errors and Marley getting sent off certainly didn't help.
     
  18. Red

    Red Rain Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your reply and sorry that it has taken me so long to get around to replying.

    1. I did not think that there was too much wrong with our shape, defensively, although I have to concede that neither were we totally dominant. For the first time, Yiadom's lack of a left foot was a problem and perhaps that signals that the message is finally out there that Yiadom will always turn inside when put under pressure. Personally, I much prefer McDonald to Jackson because I feel that Jackson has a couple of mistakes per game in him, and I wonder if there is a non-playing reason why Hecky has dropped McDonald to the bench. Most of the mistakes were individual errors, that were out of character within the game as a whole, but it is those individual errors that continue to cost us points.

    Some of the errors were from players who are universally respected, and there is a reluctance among fans to properly attribute blame, in my opinion. For example, for the Forest second Conor Hourhane did not track the player he was marking. Bree was marking to the outside and the player ran down the channel between Bree and central defence. Hourihane had taken over responsibility for the Forest player and was in position. But for some reason, he just did not track the run. The goal was clearly 90% down to Hourihane, but for some reason many have tried to allocate blame to Bree or Roberts, who was outnumbered two to 1 at the near post. At the time, I and the two people that I sit with to either side of me had our index fingers extended towards Hourihane as culprit. But that was not Hourihane's only problem on the night. He seemed without the usual energy and me and my two friends had shared the same comment. He seems to have been converted from a superb attacking midfield player, who played everywhere, did everything and was an inspiration to those around him, to a lack-lustre defensive midfield journeyman with no heart for the job. Most of the time, he is playing within whispering distance of the central defenders, and because he is so deep, his effect on the game is negligible. This perception amongst the fans that the team has gone back to tippy-tappy football is largely down to the ineffectiveness of Conor Hourihane, in my opinion.

    2. I thought James Bree had a decent game. His cross for the first goal was superb, and I think he was blameless for any of the Forest 5. He was fortunate to get away with it when his clearance was blocked, but compared to the Wigan game, I thought he had improved. With so few potential men of the match, I was not surprised when he got the shout.

    3. I agree totally with your comments about Adam Hammill. As Hecky alluded to in his post match comments, when the opposition plays 3-5-2, their weakness is behind the wing backs. It is up to our wide players to stay wide in order to try to expose that weakness. However, both Hammill and Watkins drifted inside in search of glory. They were also anxious to find a place that is easier to play rather than try to get to the goal-line past a wing back with more pace. They played for themselves and not the team. But in Hammill's case, his lack of pace is not his only problem. As a right sided left winger, it will always be easier to cut inside to make the cross, and of course, there is always the chance for glory that lies in a well hit shot into the opposite top corner of the net. The problem comes if that strategy is not the one advocated to the rest of the team before the game, and it seems from Hecky's post match comments that it was not. Then Hammill's team mates cannot time their runs into the box properly, and when the ball comes, it comes from an unexpected angle.

    The problem is that to many fans Hammill can do no wrong. His presence on the field represents hope. I thought that given the two different formations presented by Wigan and Forest, Hammill was even less effective than Kent, but I guess that I will struggle to find anyone to agree with that statement.

    4. I felt a bit sorry for Armstrong on Friday. He was making the runs, but the midfield players were too far away to find him. Winnall tries to make himself available by dropping deeper, but even Winnall would agree with me when I say, that is not what he is good at. You say that given their size, the forwards need the ball on the deck, but currently our midfield is too far back to find them with that type of ball. There is just too much time for the ball to be intercepted, when it has a longer distance to travel. Our midfield is deep, because the manager perceives a weakness in our central defence and he has chosen to try to solve it by keeping the defensive and midfield lines closer together. But the down side is that our own front two are harder to find. My own solution would be to seek a big player up front during the next transfer window, to act as a hub in the wheel. This would allow the team to convert defence into attack much more quickly, and it would also ensure that there is less danger of the ball being lost in potentially dangerous areas.

    5. There is no doubt that 3-5-2 can be successful, and with Hourihane, Scowen and Morsy in central midfield, there are grounds to think that defensively and in attack, that formation offers a better structure in the centre of the pitch. However, there is an inherent weakness in the system at full back and out wide. We have build our squad around the use of wide players, and 3-5-2 forces a bigger rethink in this respect than does one of the 4-5-1 systems. Whatever system we went for, I think the lack of a player to challenge in the air up front will continue to dictate how we play the game.

    6. Without evidence linking Tommy Wright's departure to the falling away of our form is like saying winter comes because people put on more clothing in autumn and it is that which causes winter. You must demonstrate cause and effect, and statistics/temperatures are not that evidence.
     
  19. Ors

    Orsen Kaht Guest

    Some very interesting points in response, Red Rain.

    I think that the 'big striker' angle is a growing wish for many supporters. For the oldies among us, this would probably mean someone of the calibre of Trevor Aylott or Ashley Ward. Classic 'hold-up' forwards with no little skill and not devoid of pace. The problem with that is that I think such a player who could cut it in this league is probably beyond our means these days. Shipperley didn't have that level of ability and was not quick. Sheron and Macken (in my opinion) were neither one thing nor the other and I'd little time for either. Chris O'Grady was a very honest worker but was painfully slow and seemed to spend more time out on the wing than in the middle. I think that a poor man's Aylott/Ward would lead to an alteration in the way we play - and not for the better. So if we have smaller, nippier forwards, I'd still like us to get the ball to them more quickly and accurately. But as you say, that poses a dilemma in terms of whether the accent is on supporting the attack or protecting the defence....... and on we go! What has happened to George Waring, by the way?

    As regards 6. Red Rain, I was simply stating facts there. I don't believe there are firm conclusions to draw about that information, so I haven't drawn them, let alone try to link them evidentially. But we do have a change in coaching staff and a deterioration in results. So I think it's fair to ask a question about whether the current coaching setup is delivering what we want. But like all these questions, I expect that the club have asked themselves that many times over and continue to do so. If a horse has never run on soft ground you can say that it hasn't - but not that it can't win in those conditions!
     
  20. Red

    Red Rain Well-Known Member

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    Trevor Aylott and Ashey Ward. The mere mention of those names ensures a good night's sleep. Of course, you are right. That sort of player does still exist, but they also carry a price tag that we cannot afford. I only hope that our scouting system has been targeted to look for that type of player, but at an earlier stage of their development. As always, we need to find potential, rather than the finished product.

    We caused our own problems this week with the number of mistakes that we made, but looking at us over the long term, there is too much reliance on playing in a particular way. It means that we are predictable, particularly at home where Armstrong's pace is not as devastating because the opposition back line is not as advanced. Hecky needs to be able to change the game, and at the moment he cannot. All he can do is bring on the fresher legs of a player who will play in exactly the same way as the player going off.

    Opinions eh?
     

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