Non-footy.... Re NHS..

Discussion in 'Bulletin Board' started by Tekkytyke, Feb 23, 2017.

  1. Tek

    Tekkytyke Well-Known Member

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    I don't want to make this political or receive the usual abuse 'cos I live abroad but...

    The NHS is verging on crap and anyone that says it is the best in the world is deluded.

    My daughter has a seven week old baby and is having problems which she suspects is down to lactose intolerance. She has just tried to make an appointment on an automated system for the surgery (bearing in mind it is a seven week old baby we are talking about here and the fact that she has not had the 6 week check due to constant cancellations and it will be nine weeks before the baby is weighed and will be 6 weeks since the baby was last seen by a health visitor) . She also never saw the same midwife twice during her pregnancy but that is another story.

    Here in Italy you can just go down to the surgery and usually wait between 5 and 10 minutes before you are seen by teh doctor. There is no time limit and they will spend as much or as little time as you need and you are never rushed. The buildings are a bit dilapidated but the staff are highly trained and have all the lates high tech kit. You pay a moderate contribution when, for example having a scan, or blood tests but if you need treatmet or hospitalsation the amount covers you for the entire course including post op care etc.

    Waiting lists are short too. A friend was diagnosed with suspected Breast cancer by her GP and withing a week had seen the specialist, and within a further week she was on chemo and raditherapy lasting a year and is now in remission. My expereince has been that, Barnsley hospital was excewptiopnal when we lived there but things seem to have deteriorated to the point that Italy IMHO has far nbetter health care now. It is a sorry state of affairs.
     
  2. Redstar

    Redstar Well-Known Member

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    just over three years ago, the NHS was rated either 1st or at least top 5 across around 20 metrics of effetiveness. Since then the tory cuts have bitten and bitten hard. Add to this the weight of PFI debt and the competition between health trusts and the total shambles of the internal market (LOL) and you have a receipe for not only disatster but a public softened up for wide scale private provision.
     
  3. Ors

    Orsen Kaht Guest

    Sorry to hear of your daughter's experience, Tekktyke. But allowing for undoubted problems which exist I think there are many examples locally of outstanding care and dedication by NHS staff too. I've witnessed this from family members receiving care, and several who are involved in providing it. But that doesn't alleviate the worry if one of your own has a bad experience.

    I firmly believe that the NHS still has the potential to be the best in the world. But it's a sad fact that what should be our most prized national asset has long been a political football. There is a screaming need to establish a cross-party approach to NHS funding and to take it out of the realm of party politics. As one of the biggest organisations and employers in the country, the NHS should always be subject to efficiency scrutiny, but with that caveat it should be given whatever funding is needed - even if that reduces the amounts going to fund other priorities (HS2 for one). An article last year in the Guardian indicated that the UK ranked 13th out of 15 original EU member states in terms of the amount spent on healthcare, and as a proportion of GDP that spending placed us behind Greece, Italy and Slovenia. So to say that the NHS is unffordable is nothing but propaganda. To say that demand is 'unlimited' is nonsense. No-one wants to be ill. So - subject to the afore-mentioned checks on efficient operation - give it what it needs!
     
  4. redsetter

    redsetter Member

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    Unfortunately your statement of not wanting to make a political post is in contradiction to the body of your post. The people, concept, and practices of the the NHS are the best in the world IMHO, however the problems it suffers from are undoubtedly political.
     
  5. Redstar

    Redstar Well-Known Member

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    How can there possibly be a Cross party approach when the Tories are hell bent on the privatisation of provision?
     
  6. Tek

    Tekkytyke Well-Known Member

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    YOu are right of course. The "non-political" part of my OP was just an attempt to make sure people responding did not turn it into a party political argument thread. I was making an observation - viewed from afar - as to how my experiences show that the NHS is no longer a beacon to the rest of Europe.
    As OrsenKhat has said, NHS along with education has been a political football for years. I consider Jeremy Hunt to be the main culprit in all this, given he has authored a book on, and is in favour of privatising healthcare. As a Conservative politician that therefore puts the whole sorry state firmly in their court. However, we cannot forget the part that Labour played in all this in the form of PFI which has created a financial treadmill for both Schools, colleges and the Hospital Trusts.
    We can justifiably claim that the Conservatives are idealogically driven to privatise public services in the misguided belief that it improves efficiency (whereas in fact it simply adds additional costs borne by taxpayers in the form of profits for shareholders, CEOs etc rather than being ploughed back into the business). Nevertheless, it was Blair and Brown that started all this off with PFI resulting in huge profits for companies with the taxpayer footing the bill for many years to come.
    ANY public services that is solely funded by Government ie the taxpayer is NOT suitable for privatisation as they have no other revenue sources so it is merely a mechanism of transferring money from the public purse to private individusl (i.e. another form of additional taxation.
    So it is NOT really a party political issue as ALL politicians from both sides of the house have brought this about.

    In summary my considered opinion is that Jeremy Hunt is a self serving arrogant tw*t
     
  7. Redstar

    Redstar Well-Known Member

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    PFI was started under Major and continued, to their eternal shame and disgrace by Blair, Brown and New Labour
     
  8. Ors

    Orsen Kaht Guest

    So let's keep slinging the mud across the party divide. And perhaps we'll be having the same discussion again in 20 years' time.
     
  9. Tek

    Tekkytyke Well-Known Member

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    Yes you are correct it was Major but I believe rather than "continue it" Blair and Brown massively expanded it. Huge profits ahve been made and some of the maintenance contracts havce been eye watering with individuals making huge profits off the back of the taxpayers. I believe (don't quote me) I read somewhere that in all the time since NHS was commited to PFI (£70bn+) only about £6bn of the capital has been paid off so far. That is one hell of a mortgage and it is the inbterest charges that is crippling the NHS not, as Orsenkhat has said, the misleading propoganda regarding the causes of the current financial state of the NHS. Perhaps it is time for the 'investors' to take a 'haircut' as they have milked the system for long enough.
     
  10. Sco

    Scoff Well-Known Member

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    I would go further than that. Any public service that is essential for life or employment should not be provided for profit by the private sector. Not just health, but heating, water, electric, social housing, public transport and education should be provided at cost rates not for profit. For government to serve the people, it should provide the services that people need.

    Jeremy Hunt is just one of many self-serving arrogant tw*ts in politics.
     
  11. Tek

    Tekkytyke Well-Known Member

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    PS your footnote is idealistic, a pipe dream but more importantly flies in the face of human nature. Man is a competitive beast. Remove incentive from individuals to rise above the status quo and we would never have moved out of the stone age. What is needed is capitalism, tempered with legislation that makes the distribution of generated wealth fairer but still allow the risk takers a bigger share of the rewards. Common ownership of every form of enterprise has never, and never will, work.
     
  12. pompey_red

    pompey_red Well-Known Member

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    PFI will continue as long as the tories are in power thats for sure! JC is the only leading politician as far as i can see who is interested in doing the right thing.

    Its a great shame and embarrassment that PFI has been funding hospitals, schools and other public services which governments across all sides have taken credit for. It has also guaranteed the contracts for ongoing servicing of facilities management thereafter, often at very poor rates.

    privatisation by stealth, don't blame the people who need the NHS the most though, its not a race to the bottom... look up and see who's really ruining what was the greatest institution thats ever been founded.
     
  13. Tek

    Tekkytyke Well-Known Member

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    Not sure I totally agree. I see nothing wrong with partial privatisation of some services provide it is done correctly. Railways was one example except it was done about as badly as is possible. The idea was that investment of private capital should have resulted in major infrastructure improvements with a reasonable return for investors. The fact that the public pay for train tickest means it is NOT entirely funded by the taxpayer. those using the service shopuld pay more than than people who do not. What we got was massive franchise fees bids, inmvestors creaming off huge profits, relatively little infrastructure and capacity improvements to what could ahev been expected and the taxpayer having to bail out companies time and again . The franchise fees simply disappeared into the treasury and so the taxpayer is stuck with financing the railway improvements . The same happened with the power sell-offs Gas and Elcetricity. Again the private investment should have heralded upgrades of power but nothing much happened until the givernment actually sold out to foreign companies .
     
  14. Carlycu5tard

    Carlycu5tard Well-Known Member

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    So the franchise fees went into the taxpayers "money box" - the treasury - and the taxpayer then was stuck with financing railway improvements out of their money box - i.e. the treasury - where the franchise fees were paid into.

    Is that the point you're making cos' I can't work out whether you think what happened is a good thing or a bad thing.
     
  15. Tek

    Tekkytyke Well-Known Member

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  16. Ors

    Orsen Kaht Guest

    And another £60bn to leave the EU :cool:

    (Sorry, just being mischievous!)
     
  17. Tek

    Tekkytyke Well-Known Member

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    I know what you are saying but the problem is the money was not ring fenced and therefore never reached the intended target. Therefore the public end up paying, in the case of the railways, higher ticket prices without any real visible improvements. The actual money ends up in vanity projects e.g. HS2 or , worse, bailing out the banks (albeit the alternative was economic meltdown) Accountability (lack of) is what I was really getting at when I was talking about the Treasury coffers.
     
  18. Tek

    Tekkytyke Well-Known Member

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    Yes like that is going to happen. Just Junckers being the usual tw*t. (even Merckel slapped hoim down over that) presumably like any divorce we can force them to sell the very expensive houses in Brussels and Strasbourg (not to mention the wine and spirits stock) so we get our share of the real estate. Incidentally, you are involved in the legal profession - what is your take on 'future debt' as a legal liability.? MY understanding is there is no such thing. Certainly nothing in any EU documents make any reference to a fee for leaving the EU. Future commitments is a very woolly phrase and when you leave a club you dont pay for something that might happen that will benefit only the remaining members. Perhaps if they can get the EU army up and running before we leave they can send a force into any country (including the UK) where the population are protesting against the EU and threatening to leave.;)
     
  19. Dal

    Dalestyke Member

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    Some good posts on here and as one who's now convalescing following a recent op, I have to say my own experience is 'mixed'. But we don't have to go on anecdote. I accept that things can always be done more efficiently but the fact is, the total resource you put in is the major factor. As a Country we've decided we don't want to put in the resources that others do. That's a choice we're entitled to make.
    But here's the thing, to blame it all on 'politicians' is just daft and an abdication of responsibility. We've had loads of discussion on here about 'respecting the will of the people' and 'democracy '. Well guess what, the people keep on voting for parties that are going to reduce resources spent on health. We'll probably do it again in 2020. And don't give me that 'they didn't put that in their manifesto' or 'they pledged to protect health spending'. You can only use that exsuse if you're 10 years old.
    Rant over.
     
  20. Tyk

    Tyketical Masterstroke Well-Known Member

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    This is the problem. I'm no Tory, far, far from it, but Labour and the left in general can't seem to have a conversation about any changes to or modernisation of the Health service without screaming that it's a right wing conspiracy to privatise the entire Health service, in exactly the same way as they refused to engage on immigration and screamed racism whenever anyone tried.

    The NHS cannot survive in it's current guise. People are going to need to be willing to spend more on healthcare, be it through direct funding through the current means or supplementation ine way or another by those who can afford it.

    People in European want good state healthcare. People in the UK want "free" healthcare. We need to get out of the mindset that healthcare is free in the UK, it isn't, it's paid for by taxpayers.
     

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