Non-footy.... Re NHS..

Discussion in 'Bulletin Board' started by Tekkytyke, Feb 23, 2017.

  1. tyr

    tyrone1 Banned Idiot

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    This rings a bell, they recognise. Lacoste intolerance in Barnsley. Yet at Sheffield. Childrens. Hospital. Your told your child. Is very ill...


    Get your daughter. On neocate
     
  2. Sco

    Scoff Well-Known Member

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    Is it a divorce where you have jointly purchased property, cars, etc, which are split, or a divorce where you have both rented a house, car, etc together. In the former you could conceivably get a share of the property (1/28 at some point in the future), whereas in the latter you still have to pay the money from the contract but the artifact actually belongs to the person letting it out?

    I suspect our arrangement with the EU is more like a gym membership - we signed up for and have to pay £x until the end date, irrespective of whether we use it or not, and at the end we can't just take one of the weights with us.
     
  3. Jimmy viz

    Jimmy viz Well-Known Member

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    The figures for payments for leaving the EU including ongoing pension contributions look about right to me.
     
  4. Ors

    Orsen Kaht Guest

    In so far as I understand it, when we joined and thereafter during the 45 years (so far) of our membership we have voluntarily agreed to share responsibility for the costs relating to infrastructure (buildings etc) and staffing, including pension arrangements. Some of these costs can't easily be wound back just because we are leaving - they are ongoing costs for the remaining members. No doubt some will come on and say "we could just walk away". An interesting idea if you want no ongoing trade relationship with Europe and our credit rating to be further downgraded (thus affecting our ongoing ability to borrow). So the reality is that we have to reach an amicable settlement with the EU to leave. That's more of a practical consideration than a legal one, although I have no doubt we bound ourselves legally into some of these ongoing costs. That's what the two year Article 50 period is designed to resolve.I can easily imagine that the whole of that period is likely to be taken up sorting these matters out, and that we won't even get near to reaching an agreement on trade during that time. I know that some will say it is deliberate obfuscation from a Eurocrat, but look at some of the issues Sir Ivan Rogers raised before the Select Committee the other day:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politic...egotiations-might-take-10-years-if-were-lucky

    It made me chuckle. This one is going to run and run folks!
     
  5. Tek

    Tekkytyke Well-Known Member

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    I thought the entire pension liabilty for the eurocrats was around 60 billion euro. However the makeup is that the UK numbers are about 8% of the 20 odd thousand . So are you saying Brussels expects the UK to stump up for ALL the eurocrats regardless of nationality looks right to you.

    I would have though the contributions would be proportionate to the number from each country. Or am I missing something? It is fair and proper that tax paying British Nationals living and working abroad, should be entitled to their contracted pensions so it is not an EU liability as such but just bill that UK would have to pay anyway if they had been domestic civil servants.

    Anti-EU media spinning it as a 'spiteful EU' ploy (notwithstanding the apparently excessive sum dreamt up by Junckers) if my understanding of the situation is correct does no-one any favours.
     
  6. DEETEE

    DEETEE Well-Known Member

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    That's why we all wear Fred Perry
     
  7. Tek

    Tekkytyke Well-Known Member

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    As per my reply to JC below and having just read your comment above, I agree we should not walk away, but I think looking at the numbers that Junckers seems to be quoting a figure that covers the pension liability for the entire force of Eurocrats regardless of nationality. I know the UK have argued for years that the pensions were over generous and a half hearted attempt to reduce overheads came up short. I think our real liability without shirking responsibility would be about a 10th of that figure.
    Ironically, if you look at it from the Leavers perspective, if that is the liability if we are leaving to cover the present and past liability, how much worse would it be in the long run for past present and future liability given the EUs reluctance to change ? You could argue that even 60bn (and I disagree that pension liability for a couple of thousand past and current UK eurocrats would be anywhere near that amount) would be money well spent if itr absolves us ofliability for funding future employees' joining the gravy train pensions etc . Some of the pensions and benefits packages mentioned are obscene and actually play into the hands of those who think leaving and cutting all ties is a good thing.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2017
  8. Tek

    Tekkytyke Well-Known Member

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    I nearly posted something about alligators myself but managed to resist;)
     
  9. Ors

    Orsen Kaht Guest

    I think you're right to be suspicious of Juncker's figures, Tekktyke. We all know he has his own axe to grind. No doubt there are more than pensions involved. But we have to settle these matters properly if we have any ambitions to trade with the 500m population bloc that is the EU following exit. Yes - we would avoid the future liabilities if we walked away, but it might cost us twice as much in lost trade opportunitites?
     
  10. Jimmy viz

    Jimmy viz Well-Known Member

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    I said including not inclusive...there are a myriad of long term EU funding commitments that we have made that I would expect us to have to keep.
     
  11. Tek

    Tekkytyke Well-Known Member

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    OK not being contentious but what sort of long term commitments are you referring to. You dont keep paying into a club when you leave. Pensions liabilities fair enough but paying for future projectS you will not receive any benefit from doesnt make any sense. I would not say leaving means all bets are off but a certain amount of expectation adjustment must be made by the eu. Anything else would be just plain daft. Besides long term commitment would be a two way street in that the EU commitments to long term projects beneficial to the UK would be expected to be completed. I dont see any sign of those being mentioned. All we hear from Junckers and Tusk is how much we would owe the EU.
     
  12. DEETEE

    DEETEE Well-Known Member

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    Of course they want the uk to keep chucking money at it.

    Without uk 'investment' the whole pack of cards collapses.
     
  13. Tek

    Tekkytyke Well-Known Member

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    Damn!! Just realised I took us totally off topic having...

    ... responded to Orsenkhat's tongue in cheek comment about the EU 60bn!!!

    Mea Culpa!!:rolleyes:
     
  14. tyr

    tyrone1 Banned Idiot

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    Lactose
     
  15. Jimmy viz

    Jimmy viz Well-Known Member

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    I'm.no expert on long term funding commitments made by British Governments to the EU but off the top of my head their are infrastructure projects we have committed to. Areas of agricultural policy where we have agreed funding areas of economic cooperation that we are tied into and which we have made spending commitments I suspect there are literally 100s of projects that we have already agreed to fund that we will be expected to do so. ..it's more like when you move house. You can't just say to your mortgage provider I'm not paying any more because I don't live there. Your agreement is reviewed and you end up paying (in one way or another) what you owe.

    It's no reason not to leave the EU because that's what our country wants but to think it will be cost neutral or can be done on the cheap is beyond naive.

    Anyhoo the Nhs will be sorted when it gets the 350 million quid a week it was promised. We can have a doctor each.
     
  16. Tek

    Tekkytyke Well-Known Member

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    Fair points but I am more convinced than ever, (largely due to stuff I hear about living in Italy and judging from the mood when speaking with ordinary Europeans all of which which is largely ignored by the UK press notably the BBC), that the EU's days , in its present form at least, are numbered.

    Unlike some, however, I do not revel in that fact, since, when it does, the UK will not be immune to the adverse effects. It could make 2008 look like a financial boom year!!
    I give it about 18 months so on that reckoning, the Leaving negotiations will be very interesting
     
  17. Tek

    Tekkytyke Well-Known Member

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    Sorry that is a daft anaolgy, cos when you sell the house you get the market value ( Usually more than you paid) which is used to settle the outstanding balance having made regular payments. Nor do you pay future interest which is what Junckers is talking about. You sell the house, pay the balance of the capital from the proceeds and pocket the rest (if any).

    Finally, stop banging on about the 350m for the NHS it has been done to death and I recently looked at a picture of the bus and it does not actually promise anything of the sort (look it up if you dont believe me). Do you work for the EU by the way? You seem to be siding with them at every opportunity.
     
  18. madmark62

    madmark62 Well-Known Member

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    So just what the heck has all this waffle got to do with your original "non Political " dig at the NHS ?
    If your daughter does not like the treatment she is receiving, then she can always go private and pay the going rate, or she can take up arms and join the crusade to help the NHS become thee force it was before all the cuts and sell offs.
    If she goes for the former I hope she has deep pockets !!
     
  19. DEETEE

    DEETEE Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, at the point of referral you can ask to be treated at any uk hospital including private ones. The Nhs will stump up the costs.
     
  20. Tek

    Tekkytyke Well-Known Member

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    Steady on!! See my post just below. I did get sidetracked I admit. It wasn't a "dig" but an observation from afar. For the many years I lived and worked in Barnsley I had nothing but good experiences with both Barnsley Hospital (both as an in-patient and Ouitpatient) and the GP . My daughter was born in the hospital, as was my grandaughter recently and again, I have nothing but praise for the nurses, midwives, doctors and consultants I encountered. I was highlighting that, unlike those times when everything about the NHS was an example to the rest of the world regarding free at the point of access Healthcare, the MPs have interfered so much that it is no longer. Waiting lists, aff shortages, staff on long term sickness or off with stress, all can be laid at the feet of successive governments who have starved the NHS of cash. I totally agree that the government (whatever dflavour) need to stop treating the NHS as a liability and fund it properly. The thing is would the public be prepared to stump up a bit more on their tax bill to fund it properly given that a lot of the extra cash goes straight to private PFI companies (which is why the Trusts are strapped for cash now. Liek I said in the OP, Itlay has part private sector blood tests and scans are farmed out to private companies clinics and laboratories buit are part subsidised and you pay a fractoion of whta private care would cost. e.g. Ultrasound scan euros but you get the diagnosis, DVD and report handed to you immediately to take to your GP. Blood tests vary from 30-70 euros depending on how many tests you have done. Hospitalisation may be up front payment up to 200 euros but that covers everything from consultants, treatment, operations, after care, physio everything (and that is for serious iollness like cancer. A friend having chemo even had a choice of wig and styling paid for when she lost her hair.The Italian Helath system is for the people and not for profit which sadly in the UK it increasingly is.
    No need to fall out as I am in agreement with you. Incidentally we are not exactly rich and nor is my daughter so Private Healthcare is not really an option.
     

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