Corbyn: set the controls for the heart of the sun

Discussion in 'Bulletin Board ARCHIVE' started by Orsen Kaht, Oct 7, 2016.

  1. ark

    ark104 (v2) Well-Known Member

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    Just on austerity, if it is working why have all the self-imposed targets been missed and why is it being stepped back by the Tories?
     
  2. Redstar

    Redstar Well-Known Member

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    Thriving and prospering for who in the USA?

    Austerity is the transference of more wealth and the means to own wealth to an ever smaller group of people. Nothing more, nothing less.

    You've fallen hook line and sinker for the passing debt on line.
     
  3. DSLRed

    DSLRed Well-Known Member

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    No.

    Because I would not believe the costings. And I do not believe in the principle that the next generation should pay for our folly.
     
  4. tobyornottoby

    tobyornottoby Well-Known Member

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    Do you need complete world subjugation for your brand of population control to prosper?

    Or can it flourish in individual countries? While others get on with their own thing?
     
  5. ark

    ark104 (v2) Well-Known Member

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    I enjoy debating with you but on this issue I think your points lose their relevance when you say that the policies you have been shown are those of a maniac and a quasi-communist state. They are in no way as radical as is being made out.

    Just regarding debt, local authorities borrow at about 2% and as I said in an earlier post any that retain their own council housing stock have huge asset bases that they could borrow against. Governments have not let them do so as they have argued that they would still be seen as underwriting that debt. But both the Netherlands and Germany have decided this isn't the case. This would release potentially billions of pounds of investment without needing any central government borrowing.

    Where I get radical (proper radical, not just casting fairly moderate policies as such) is for this to be effective it needs to be coupled with wide scale imposition of CPO powers because everything that is wrong with housebuilding in this country, and by extension wealth inequality, is linked to land economics.
     
  6. ark

    ark104 (v2) Well-Known Member

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    What if you did believe the costings?
     
  7. Red

    Red Rain Well-Known Member

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    Then educate me, please.

    I live in the United Kingdom. During my lifetime, the country build up a debt. The country needs its population to pay down that debt through the taxation system. Sadly, I pass away before that debt is paid. But the country still owes that debt. Who will pay the debt because if the country defaults, no-one will lend any money the next time that we need it. Surely it is the next generation, or have I missed something here.

    You can spout all the far left rhetoric that you want, but economics is not politics and whilst I am interested if you have an answer, because then I will have learned something new, I am not interested in your politics or your meaningless rhetoric. Sorry!
     
  8. DSLRed

    DSLRed Well-Known Member

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    That would make me insane.
     
  9. tobyornottoby

    tobyornottoby Well-Known Member

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    Yeah but if you're already borrowed up to the hilt you should not be borrowing any more until you've paid off some of your debt.

    Family or country.
     
  10. Red

    Red Rain Well-Known Member

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    It sounds like you would soon cover every corner of this "green and pleasant land" in no time.

    I have only written about one of the policies currently being advanced by the Corbyn's Labour Party, but I could write a similar piece about all ten of the policies, and I think that they are every bit as radical as is being made out. It is the mad professor finally gaining access to the laboratory, determined to run his experiments to their conclusion, whatever that may be. It is my worst nightmare. If I, as a supposed Labour party supporter can write this stuff, just what sort of a mess are the Tories going to make of it before the next election. I dread to think. Radicalism attracts few new supporters and none from the right, which is what the party needs to do, but losses core supporters by the boat load.
     
  11. ark

    ark104 (v2) Well-Known Member

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    Well I was thinking more about brownfield sites in the first instance but I think some of the 85% of England that is completely undeveloped could be spared for careful planned development.

    The centre left is collapsing across Europe. I don't think Labour can ignore this. I also don't think with the rise of the (anti-austerity) SNP and pending electoral reform Labour can win anyway, and would like to see the left stop bickering about the small areas they disagree and embrace the vast areas they do.

    I do think you would be surprised by the different people Corbyn's policies are attracting. Successful people, of all ages, who can see that the way the country is in the interests of the few and needs a new approach beyond tinkering with neoliberalism.
     
  12. wil

    wilkojohnson Active Member

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    Ok so every corner would be built upon.................

    As far as I know there is standing room for every woman, man and child on this planet on.................the Isle on Wight

    But as long as there are policies in place to keep house prices artificially high................
     
  13. BBB

    BBBFC Well-Known Member

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    Austerity - no. It's a way of moving money upwards to reinforce and increase the gap in wealth.

    All of Osborne's targets were missed, budget after budget, and in the end, Philip Hammond has finally done away with his ruling of a government having to be in surplus year-on-year as they knew it was unachievable due to austerity having nothing to do with saving, just a way of cutting money for those at the bottom of the pile.

    Also, 10-16, the Tories increased national debt more than any Labour government in history put together, mostly through QE, but also borrowing massively.

    What do we have to show for that?

    I haven't watched the country slowly breaking over my lifetime, as I'm 32 and it was already ****ed by the time I knew what money meant. Living in the south, owning housing seems absolutely impossible to me without relying on inheritance. I know who I blame for that. You talk about the next generation having to pay for the debt. We're already paying for it. That NHS that the Tories are scrambling like hell to privatise? We'd quite like to keep that.

    But Corbyn's the one going crackers, that the Chinese and the Saudis (?!) won't trust with money, cos he wants to invest it in mass infrastructure projects.
     
  14. Jimmy viz

    Jimmy viz Well-Known Member

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  15. Jimmy viz

    Jimmy viz Well-Known Member

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    Capitalism was subverted to a degree in America by Obama's interventions and propping up the economy through the state. The modern America was forged by post depression state intervention.

    The great disparities in wealth and inequality in America would suggest that capitalism is not successful. Donald Trump being lauded for avoiding taxes would suggest that Capitalism is not working. Donald Trump be good a hairs breath from the White House would show the failure of capitalism. Have you seen the abandoned towns round Detroit? The dead cities. The extent of the national debt. The USA's reliance on 'communist China'. The positivity and spirit of American's is brilliant the political system they live under is failing and has failed them.

    Austerity is a banner to hide ideological cleansing. The view of a large percentage of left leaning economists ( even the mildly left ones).

    https://www.theguardian.com/busines...ng-austerity-is-based-on-lies-video-interview
     
  16. Red

    Red Rain Well-Known Member

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    As a country, we do not want the sort of Capitalism that you find in the USA and so we legislate more heavily in order to prevent it. But equally, there is no doubt that the American style of Capitalism produces world dominating companies that produce thousands of good jobs that pay very good salaries and generate high tax revenues for their government. The election of Donald Trump would not prove that Capitalism had failed because both of the parties in the USA believe in Capitalism. It would simply indicate that Republicans are stupid.

    We are not debating whether the American system is right for the UK. It clearly is not. We are debating what is the best way to get a government elected in the UK that more closely identifies with your political views. The UK electorate elect governments that occupy the centre ground. They do not trust governments that appear to be too far left or too far right. That is the way it is. The ideas in Mr Corbyn's manifesto will appeal to people such as yourself on the far left of the party, but they are already Labour Party supporters and their votes will not carry the Labour Party to power. Tony Blair knew this and he took the party towards the centre ground where he knew that he would find support. What we ended up with was a Labour government that was not to your taste, but that is the only Labour government that stands any chance of being elected. You can argue with me until the cows come home, and you can quote political ideology and dogma, but unless the party is producing policies that people will vote for, it is all pointless. That is the way democracy works. You have to persuade more than 50% of the people that you are right. In a democracy, no-one agrees with everything a government does. In reality, all that you can hope for is that you get a government that more closely approximates your view of the way that things ought to be done. In the UK, this equates to one party having a bigger safety net for the poor than the other party. Sorry, but that is the reality and that is the future.

    I watched the piece from the Guardian. The guy was calling for Keynesian economics and there is no doubt that there is a time when a government should spend its way out of a depression, but in my judgement, that time was not just after a banking crisis caused by the bursting of a property bubble, and I am sure that we could find some equally learned professor to support that view as well.
     
  17. qqkachew

    qqkachew Member

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    Wow! This is some outpouring from our resident Marxist / Leninist. First I've ever seen you write "Conservatives".
    To me it would seem that left wing socialism is heading the same way as communism and being accelerated along the way by overtly incompetent , and I dare say, talentless leaders.
    No chance of labour getting in with Corbyn in charge and, with the possible exception of Benn, there's no one else coming through either.
    Long may it continue.
     
  18. Redstar

    Redstar Well-Known Member

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    No idea where to start with that.

    I can only assume you are part of the 1%
     
  19. DEETEE

    DEETEE Well-Known Member

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    Im still awaiting an example of what a socialist utopia would look like.

    Im sure there are several examples of a country in the world where this is the norm.

    Go on sell it to me.
     
  20. Jimmy viz

    Jimmy viz Well-Known Member

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    I'm not a supporter of the Labour Party on the left or otherwise. I have never voted Labour usually voting Green though I may this time.

    You don't have to persuade 50 percent of the electorate to vote for you given voter apathy and general distrust of politics and politicians you have to persuade roughly a third. The Trump campaign is an interesting one on some levels it shows people's rejection of the old order. The triumph of the right is the death of idealism people no longer believe that politicians can make a positive change. Trump has challenged this and Corbyn may also do so. What Milliband showed is that the appetite for Torylite has disappeared.

    State intervention was the ultra capitalist USA approach to solve the banking crisis and seems to have worked much better than austerity. It Is important not to dismiss this or ignore it.

    I think Corbyn heading a rainbow coalition could quite feasibly win an election if the extreme right within his party stop the infighting and the Snp can be engaged. The Snp shows quite clearly that a left leaning political party can achieve electoral success.
     

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