India vs England (3rd test)

Discussion in 'Bulletin Board' started by Redhelen, Feb 24, 2021.

  1. Stephen Dawson

    Stephen Dawson Well-Known Member

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    1984 v the West Indies.
     
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  2. Fon

    Fonzie Well-Known Member

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  3. TitusMagee

    TitusMagee Well-Known Member

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    Just seen there was one in 2000 against Windies? Apparently the first for 50 years.
     
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  4. Jack Tatty (Formerly LouisBalfour)

    Jack Tatty (Formerly LouisBalfour) Well-Known Member

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    Paul Hardcastle nnnnnnn nineteen.
     
  5. Jack Tatty (Formerly LouisBalfour)

    Jack Tatty (Formerly LouisBalfour) Well-Known Member

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    England cannot play against spinners

    Sub continent sides struggle on green swinging wickets.
     
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  6. Jack Tatty (Formerly LouisBalfour)

    Jack Tatty (Formerly LouisBalfour) Well-Known Member

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    Also makes you wonder what these very well paid sports psychologists do when then go on tour with England as there is far too often a mental fragility with the top order batsman when under pressure.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2021
  7. Dan

    DannyWilsonLovechild Well-Known Member

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    Clearly, you're so attached to modern statistics, that you refuse to consider the context of how those statistics are amassed.

    Take the Windies for example. For a lengthy period, they had a 4 GREAT fast bowlers all playing in the same game. There are only 10 wickets per innings available to be taken. If they all gained fairly even rewards, you'd have 2 players getting 2 wickets, 2 getting 3. They look okay statistics. If you have one decent bowler and 3 crap/average ones, playing against worst batsmen, you could easily see that decent bowler gaining seemingly better statistics than previous great bowlers. If say 2 of those 4 great bowlers do above average, they could get 5s and 4s. What about the stats of the other 2 great bowlers? they might get one each, or even go without. That has a downward effect on their statistics, yes? Or do you dispute that?

    You've also got other factors and changes. Bigger bats with no genuine edge. So now we see players hitting sixes, even Jack Leaches of this world, clearing boundaries by a distance off the outside edge or bottom of their bat. Thats not skill or technique. Its a modern bat with a huge sweetspot that gives no vibration up the handle. 20-30 years ago, if you didn't hit a ball in the middle, it wouldn't got for 6, you'd be out. Boundaries were largely brought in too. You also had uncovered pitches.

    And you've purposefully ignored the point I was making re Archer. If you put a poor test batsmen in a lower pool of cricket, his stats will stand out. Ergo, you put an average test player into a poor era of test cricket and their statistics will look better than what they are.

    And I simply don't see your adaptations from t20, and you're welcome to your assertion the skills are "truly amazing." T20 is just a 20 over slog fest. Theres very little skill at all. And I blame it for why there are so many poor techniques now and why Roy, Bairstow, Buttler, Stokes etc have been given runs in a form of cricket they aren't especially suited to.

    But anyway, we'll politely agree to disagree and see if India can score a nominal amount of runs to lead the series.
     
  8. Dan

    DannyWilsonLovechild Well-Known Member

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  9. TitusMagee

    TitusMagee Well-Known Member

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  10. pompey_red

    pompey_red Well-Known Member

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    Have you really just used that as an example? a green top in seaming condition at headingley v the wort west indies team seen for many a year. And you had the cheek to lecture me that batsmen were better around that time! ;)
     
  11. Dan

    DannyWilsonLovechild Well-Known Member

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    Have you just really taken a tongue in cheek playful comment as an example?
     
  12. Dan

    DannyWilsonLovechild Well-Known Member

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  13. Redhelen

    Redhelen Well-Known Member

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    India or Australia to qualify for World Test this Summer?
     
  14. pompey_red

    pompey_red Well-Known Member

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    The windies had 4 great quick bowlers, and a few in reserve too, followed by 2 exceptional ones in walsh and ambrose. check there averages. you have written a large paragraph about how many wickets they might be able to take. but check the averages. its simple then, balls bowled v wickets taken. all that gumph you've wrote is largely irrelevant. yes amounts of wickets are nice but averages matter!

    The changes you mention reagrds bats and boundaries must mean to be a bowler requires even greater skill, the skill you said had disappeared, Stokes lets not forget has all facets of the game and his average and his stats stack up against contemporaries now, against those playing under the same conditions and against past players.

    the point you made about archer was absurd thats why, you claim that the current era is "poor" its far from it, until you recognise that there are some pretty seriously good cricketers playing the game right now theres no point. again T20 is rubbish, i hate it, its over too quick, theres no value on a wicket but to say there is no skill is just wrong.
     
  15. PLOBBY

    PLOBBY Well-Known Member

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    It's was a car crash of a test match, totally compelling at the same time. Iow scoring test matches are usually the most enjoyable to watch but this was a joke, over inside two days, joke.
     
  16. pompey_red

    pompey_red Well-Known Member

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    keep digging!
     
  17. Andy Mac

    Andy Mac Well-Known Member

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    An absolute farce of two days cricket, yet strangely addictive to watch.

    The idea is two teams 'test' themselves over the course of 5 days.
     
  18. Dan

    DannyWilsonLovechild Well-Known Member

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    Walsh and Ambrose weren't even the greatest of their fast bowlers. Holding, Garner, Marshall and Roberts were frightening. Truly frightening.

    Bat changes could equate to higher batting averages, and could equate to worse bowling averages. But how many slogs are chopped on now? Or as we've seen in this game, batsmen playing down the wrong line and being lbw... that doesn't matter how big your bat is. That's a failure of technique and skill. It's easier to get a 6, but technique is worse than in prior cycles.

    My comment on Archer was an exaggeration of an example to show how putting a poor cricketer in one sphere, into a pool of poor players which makes him look good can provide a statistical skew. Clearly, in no way was I suggesting archer is an outstanding batsmen. But putting him in a lesser class of cricket makes him appear so.

    If you put Kohli, Williamson, Smith especially, Root in against eras where greats were aplenty, their statistics would look very different.
     
  19. Dan

    DannyWilsonLovechild Well-Known Member

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    Not digging at all. I like Broad. I think if he pitched the ball up more and hadn't had a spell of having to be "the enforcer" he'd have even more wickets than he does. I think he can be defined as a great. But you have players like Caddick and Gough. Maybe even Foster and Dilley before them, who played some very good cricket at times and bowled some incredible spells, getting quality legendary players out and playing less matches than those of today.

    The point is it's unbelievably hard to truly compare those players across different eras, with different expectations, with different tactics and techniques and even different rules and it therefore becomes less of a statistical comparator and has aspects of subjective.

    DRS has changed technique massively, so consider the amount of wickets Warne and Murali got before this advent. Its impossible to know if they would have got significantly more in this era, given poorer technique and that change in applying laws, but I suspect they would.

    We've a difference of opinion. I'm not trying to change your mind of what you believe. You're not going to change my mind of what I believe.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2021
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  20. Stephen Dawson

    Stephen Dawson Well-Known Member

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    The bowling speeds haven't changed that much though. Crickets a rare sport because era's are interchangeable. Yes the bats are better now but I'd say Root, Smith, Kohli and Williamson could have held there own in the past. I'd say they were better bowlers in past generations but you're either decent or you aren't.
     

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