Is it me? ......

Discussion in 'Bulletin Board' started by Tekkytyke, Dec 7, 2020.

  1. Tek

    Tekkytyke Well-Known Member

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    A Guardian headline reported that some families are suing the Met for using the identities (birth certificate) of dead children for undercover operations. and that they families are 'devastated' 'appalled and angered'. My initial thought was that this was incredibly insensitive but then I read the article in more detail....

    Since, obviously an undercover operativeusing the ID would not be 5, 10, 15 or unlikely to be even 20 years old then the deaths must have occurred over two decades ago. One child died at birth, one drowned at sea, one was killed in a plane crash and one was severely disabled and died aged 6.

    Yes. Losing a loved one particularly a child is incredibly traumatic and something you never ever fully get over (I know from personal experience) but the circumstances where the birth certificate (not a body) has been used to build up an identity and history to enable an undercover operative to successfully infiltrate a criminal organisation is in no way comparable to something like harvesting organs without permission.

    I cannot help but think the lawyers who stand to make a lot of money bringing these cases and (to some extent the journalists whose job it is to sell newspapers ) encourage the plaintiffs and words like 'devastated' and 'angered' and 'appalled' appear far to often when these type of cases are reported.

    Whilst I am fortunate that my daughter (now 33) has survived into adulthood, hand on heart, I can honestly say that if she had died very young and I found that her birth certificate had been used in this way recently I would not be 'devastated' as claimed by these families. If using a piece of paper i.e. birth certificate to create a credible identity is protecting someone taking great personal risk on behalf of the public why would I be? In a strange way I would find it comforting that something positive from her death had resulted.

    As for using them "without permission", approaching people to do so would surely create a potential leak. Therefore, I fully understand why a family would not be approached. Furthermore, unlike organ donor procedures, I do not see it would be a legal requirement to seek a family's permission to access/use a record in the public domain in this way.

    I acknowledge that being on the lower end of the 'spectrum' I can be somewhat less empathic on occasions towards others but in this instance, and having discussed this with one or two others around my age I am not so isolated in my views on this.
     
  2. pompey_red

    pompey_red Well-Known Member

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    yes its you.

    Its disgusting and the families have every right to a full apology.
     
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  3. TitusMagee

    TitusMagee Well-Known Member

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    I'll be honest, no I don't think it is appropriate. Especially given what some of these officers have got up to whilst undercover. I wouldn't want that in my child's name.
     
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  4. Tek

    Tekkytyke Well-Known Member

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    Fair do's..... your opinion - but why is it disgusting? Honest question.... I gave my reasons why I don't think it is , why do you? really I am not trying to cause an argument just curious.

    EDIT: Apology aside, in your opinion are they justified in going to court seeking financial gain rather than an apology?
     
  5. pompey_red

    pompey_red Well-Known Member

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    I've thankfully not been in the position the bury a child. I can imagine its the most heartbreaking thing any parent could do. just think about that for a moment. i dont have to, or should need to explain any more. It's not for arguing about or even taking further, i can't quite believe your OP attempts to justify it really. Those children deserve respect, they have not been afforded it.
     
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  6. red

    red24/7 Well-Known Member

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    everything is about money these days,maybe the great reset may not be a bad thing, we all going to own nothing and be happy apparently
     
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  7. Tek

    Tekkytyke Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough. I understand your view. As my edit stated though, not sure the first action taken i.e. to sue the Met is particularly 'sensitive' Like I said it hints at being more about the money than taking a moral stand.
     
  8. Tek

    Tekkytyke Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough. Not sure though (like I responded to pompey-red though) whilst respecting people views on the Mets behaviour I am not sure that the first action i.e. to sue the Met for financial gain reflects the motivation being moral outrage.
     
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  9. red

    red24/7 Well-Known Member

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    my gran died of a mis diagnosed broken neck, they said she had whiplash from a fall,by time someone had 2nd look at xray it was too late wasted away after 2 weeks of agony,my mum would not sue the hospital, some people in this case may just be happy with an apology we do not know
     
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  10. TitusMagee

    TitusMagee Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure the motive will have been purely financial as you appear to suspect but it might make them reconsider doing it again if it hits their budget
     
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  11. Tek

    Tekkytyke Well-Known Member

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    But that is about death caused by negligence which is entirely different. Some form of financial penalty for those responsible might be appropriate as an incentive to improve and prevent a repeat even if any payout goes to a related charity should the plaintiff not want compensation. This case is about using a death not causing a death. The emotive subject it being a child 's death is the reason for the controversy but unless we want to have 60 year old undercover operative then it would have to be a child from 20-30 years ago whose identity is used. If the majority believe it is immoral what was done then I accept that I am wrong but I do wonder what the alternatives are to create a credible watertight fake identity.
     
  12. red

    red24/7 Well-Known Member

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    what if the criminal **** ends up back on original parents doorstep, you could have some revenge attack on them and they dont know what for
     
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  13. Rosco

    Rosco Well-Known Member

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    I think you are lucky, your child is alive. Stepping into the shoes of someone whose child didn't make it is very difficult. I'd be loathe to say how or why they should feel.
     
  14. Redhelen

    Redhelen Well-Known Member

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    As a mother or would upset me greatly. I wouldn't sue though.in all honesty, the thought of my child's organs being in someone else would upset me too even though they'd be helping someone else. Totally irrational I know but there you go.
     
  15. red

    red24/7 Well-Known Member

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    brave honest reply
     
  16. Dav

    DavidCurriesMullet Well-Known Member

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    Why is it always the Met? Its disgusting what they did. You can build undercover identities pretty easily, no requirement for using dead children ffs!
     
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  17. Tek

    Tekkytyke Well-Known Member

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    A valid point ...especially since the criminals have reason to believe the person is alive and then trace use the parents as collateral.
     
  18. man

    mansfield_red Well-Known Member

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    Surely the state can just invent a person for these purposes and there's no need to use the identities of the dead.

    It's amazing how the OP is able to step into the shoes of the bereaved to have a pop at lawyers and the Guardian but excuse the police.
     
  19. Brush

    Brush Well-Known Member

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    This is a very difficult issue. I've read enough Le Carre books to know that MI5, MI6 and other state security organisations have done this many many times. I'd never heard of the police doing it though. Whilst I can see and fully understand some relatives being upset by this, It wouldn't surprise that some relatives might actually be proud that their loved one has helped to combat crime in this way. As you say, asking permission would be very dangerous for the undercover officer. Tough one.
     
  20. Brush

    Brush Well-Known Member

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    If they could do that to help the police, just think of the other things they could do, create an army of reliable Tory voters for example....
     
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