Just saying .......

Discussion in 'Bulletin Board' started by Andy Mac, Apr 12, 2017.

  1. Red

    Red Rain Well-Known Member

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    John Dennis ran the football club when it got to the Premier League for the only time in its history. It was a huge achievement and something which he can be proud of. He also ran the club when it entered Administration, and that is a huge stain upon his reign. Fans are rightly grateful for the good times and are willing to accept excuses for the bad. I am grateful for the good times, but I am less tolerant of the bad. John Dennis ran the football club, as his father had done before him, but it was no more a community club than it is now. It is easy to be carried away with the full houses during our time in the Premier League, but I also remember just 7,500 turning up for a mid-week Swindon fixture just weeks before the Bradford City game that won us promotion to the promised land. The town has a very mixed relationship with its football club and that relationship could never be described as unconditionally supportive. There has always been an us and them attitude towards the board of directors and the fact that you regard John Dennis as a hero is to ignore all the stick he received throughout his stewardship of the football club. In the eyes of the average fan, things are always the fault of the people who run the club, and never the fault of the average hard working people of the town who chose to spend their money on something else. Football is a competitive sport off the field as well as on it. Players will always try to maximise their earnings and the better players will move on in order to do so. Because its earnings from gate receipts are lower than most other teams in the second tier. the club has to supplement its income through selling players. It has ever been thus. The academy is seen as a cheap method of bringing good players to the club. The costs of running the academy are akin to paying out transfer fees. Both have the same end result. I too am doubtful about the value of the academy. It is reputed to cost £1m per year to run, which equates to £1m that could be spent on player wages or transfer fees. But equally, I can imagine the outcry if we had no academy and some young lad from town came through the academy of say Sheffield Wednesday and earned them a lot of money. These are difficult decisions for the board, and the fans will always measure those decisions with the benefit of hindsight. There will always be fans who point the finger at some club perceived to be doing better than us, and blame the directors for that fact. No-one gets it right all the time. I find that easier to accept than many fans do. I find it easier to understand the logic that was applied in making the original decision, even if that decision subsequently turned out to be poor. I am more willing to be patient than many, because ultimately it is patience that brings its reward when money is tight. I am much more tolerant than most, much more willing to accept logical explanation. We have been together a long time, me and my club, and we have gone through good times and bad together. The people who run the club do their best. They swim against a current of under funding and a tide of ambivalence from their community and that is a sad fact of life for my town. OK, the town has gone through a bad time, money is tight, but it hasn't always been like that. I can remember when the local economy was thriving and the entry fee to attend games was low, and people still refused to turn up and support their team. I was one of a crowd of just 1,400 for a fourth division game, and the community did not seem very interested then either. If my club was a community club, the community would support it whatever, but that is not the case. The community is rightly proud when the club does well, but when the club does badly, the community ignores the club. And it was ever thus, no matter how rosy you believe things were under John Dennis or any of his predecessors.
     
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  2. Con

    Conan Troutman Well-Known Member

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    I have not argued for lower ticket prices. I am very satisfied with the season ticket price - although I think (some) match day prices are disgusting.

    What irks me is that you are constantly criticising the people of and supporters of Barnsley for not paying what you consider to be enough in terms of amounts and frequency, but you have a ticket at the concessionary rate. Logic dictates that if the club need your money and you believe people should contribute more, then you should forego your discount. You argue that you have paid your dues and are entitled to a discount. You are entitled to a discount due to your age not your longevity - although I will say that you do have longevity. However, supporters 30 plus years younger than you will pay far more than you have in real terms before they qualify for a concession - yet you want them to pay more and criticise them for not doing so.

    If you take that a personal attack so be it. That is not my intention.
     
  3. Andy Mac

    Andy Mac Well-Known Member

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    I think most would be happy with ST price cuts on the proviso income / revenue stays approx the same or increases slightly.

    I.e get more folk in the ground, without a negative effect on cash flow.

    Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk
     
  4. Red

    Red Rain Well-Known Member

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    My position is not based upon how much I, or you, or anybody else pays. My position is based upon the fact that footballing success is based upon income. I do not bring into my argument the personal circumstances of any individual. I talk about the people of Barnsley and what the people of Barnsley want and how much they are prepared to spend in order to get what they want. I talk about alternative strategies that go about meeting the shortfall in revenue as measured against the revenue of our competitors. I talk about alternative strategies if the people of Barnsley are unwilling to fund the club through gate receipts. But the one and only sure thing in all of this chatter is that the club must supplement its income if the people of Barnsley are unwilling to provide the cash themselves. There is just no alternative to the harsh realities of football financing. I wish things were different. I wish the players were willing to accept less, were willing to sign long term contracts on terms that are affordable. But those days are gone, and harsh financial realities now rule the game, no matter how we would like to ignore them. The players take all that they can get and the clubs with more can afford the best players. That is the logic of my position and it does not matter how you argue that it is otherwise.

    What irritates me about your position is that you refuse to accept that league position is based upon finances. You argue for lower prices, retention of players through payment of higher salaries and high risk strategies which have little chance of success. And yet when the club loses money, you argue that it is badly run, even though all of the policies that you advocate would result in higher loses. In summary, everything the club does is wrong and every action is takes is wrong. And the basis for your judgement... outcome.... hindsight.... nothing more.
     
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  5. MexboroughTyke

    MexboroughTyke Well-Known Member

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    How would that happen?
     
  6. YTBFC

    YTBFC Well-Known Member

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    I recall March/April of 1996 we were on a run of something like one win in 10 with loads of defeats which ended any hopes of the playoffs. There were chants after a loss at Oakwell against Reading I think it was, proper vociferous chants of 'Sack the board' and 'We want Dennis out'.
     
  7. Jimmy cricket

    Jimmy cricket Well-Known Member

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    The success or failure of Dennis stewardship is irrelevant. He created a community club. I could give you numerous other examples. The whole of the German Bunasliga. Real Madrid. Portsmouth. Fc United. All run community based models. There will be peaks and troughs in any model but your statement that community clubs do not exist is just incorrect.

    Again I have no arguments about the Academy. Mr Cryne has always promoted and supported it and that's good enough for me but it is this that is loss making and he subsidies not the club itself (as far as I can see from the accounts)

    It would cost a father to trend Oakwell on a casual basis for a big game in excess of 70 quid. Given the demographics of the area this is not sustainable with earnings 10 percent below the average. On your mimum wage job of 240 quid a week we have successfully priced future fans out.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2017
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  8. Jimmy cricket

    Jimmy cricket Well-Known Member

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    That's not especially relevant. The club was run on a community basis. The success or failure of that model is not relevant The argument is that they dont exist is false Real Madrid are a community based club and have had occasional success.
     
  9. Mrs

    MrsHallsToffeerolls Well-Known Member

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    I think it were a tanner.
     
  10. Andy Mac

    Andy Mac Well-Known Member

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    See explanation from Royston, previous page. Explains it easily enough.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2017
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  11. Gordon Owen

    Gordon Owen Well-Known Member

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    There were 5 other home games betweem the Bradford and Swindon game and they all attracted between 11,701 and 17,576. You picked the worst crowd to suit and the Swindon game was 8,518.
     
  12. Gordon Owen

    Gordon Owen Well-Known Member

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    Really, l can't remember anything like during any point of that Wilson era. Why would there be? we were finishing just outside the play off positions having had 3 seasons finishing in the bottom third, we were playing some of the best football we had ever seen. I remember a cup game away at Newcastle, l think Redders scored a beauty and we played brilliant, the commentator was all over us with our style of football.
     
  13. Jimmy cricket

    Jimmy cricket Well-Known Member

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    Wasn't it also the one with thick fog that everyone thought would be postponed?
     
  14. Con

    Conan Troutman Well-Known Member

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    I accept that league position is based largely on finances. Not always. However, as I have said you seem to blame the people of Barnsley for not contributing enough to the coffers. This is not the case. Realistically, these days you either need parachute payments and/or a benefactor. If we were getting 23,000 a week and paying £500 for Season Tickets it probably still wouldn't be enough.

    If you've got the time, have a look at the three promoted teams over the last so many years and see where they ranked in terms of attendance. I bet you'd be surprised.

    I will repeat - I have not demanded lower season ticket prices but I think £36 for a match day ticket is disgusting. I want the club to maximise revenue wherever possible but anything suggested has been dismissed. Even though other clubs do it.
     
  15. JamDrop

    JamDrop Well-Known Member

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    Media has improved ten fold recently Whitey, I think everyone would acknowledge that. I'm not really having this discussion with you in the hope that you would improve things, I'm having it with you as a fan to fan, rather than fan to employee.

    By 'non-football stuff' I guess I kind of mean 'matchday experience', although it is so much more than that. The stock, and more importantly, levels of stock, in the shop, the selling - or not - of food and drinks at half time, the general upkeep of the ground (I know the statement recently said it's going to be improved but forgive me for not holding my breath, I'm still waiting for some lights near/flourescent paint on some certain bollards that was promised 8 months ago), the advertisment of the club in areas outside of the internet, even the scoreboard although I'm giving up on that as the new one is at least an improvement and will 'do'.

    I know Linton's gone and that was his side of things for a while, but even then he seemed to be more about sponsorship and marketing to businesses than individuals. I know that side of things is very important but it shouldn't be one or the other. Every day I drive through Bradford I seem to be stuck behind a bus advertising tickets/shirts, there's billboards everywhere. Other people have given examples of smaller clubs who can sell food better than we can (I know we have a bigger fanbase that makes it harder but other clubs and non football events manage it). Back to Bradford again, they sold 10,000 shirts last season. Do we know how many we sold? It would be interesting to find out as we completely sold out of most sizes before Open Day. No matter what excuses we were given, that is beyond poor. It was impossible for us to have sold more than we did as we even ran out of the new order quickly. For the mark up value of shirts it may have been less of a risk to buy too many and sell them half price later on in the season and we'd probably still more than cover costs. Even without the risk we could have easily bought and sold double with no surplus stock. Even things we do have in stock look terrible. Those Easter Eggs which are a great idea, look awful and tacky in the photograph I've seen. Some may sell as people will no doubt want a BFC themed egg and cup but chuff me, was the person who wrapped them having a laugh? Now if they don't sell well they'll be considered a bad idea and a loss of money, rather than thinking why that might be.

    Most of this stuff won't bother older fans (both in respect of age and length of time supporting BFC) but they do affect potential new fans who've been brought up with everything being instant and shiny and new. I'm not passing comment on whether I agree it should be that way or not, but the fact is, it is. We're still stuck firmly in the past and as much as the long time fans I feel half enjoy how bad we are in some respects for the nostalgia, it doesn't attract new fans.

    Edit: I've just looked again at the pic of the egg and maybe it's more the photograph itself than the wrapping. Everything taken laid on the floor like a second hand amateur seller on Ebay. We need someone to go in the club shop and take some fancy pictures ;)

    Ignoring the team, which one would someone be more likely to buy?
     

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  16. Gordon Owen

    Gordon Owen Well-Known Member

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    It could have been, it was an unusually low crowd, the previous home game we had 18k v Wolves (I recall Mills getting a brace for them) and then over 12k at home to Port Vale, who would have brought a bus load.
     
  17. Jimmy cricket

    Jimmy cricket Well-Known Member

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    Can't say I remember it either. There were a few sack the board chants over the years. When Mel was at the end of his reign I remember well.
     
  18. Jimmy cricket

    Jimmy cricket Well-Known Member

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    Not that the number of fans attending a match makes you either a community based club or not. Both Real Madrid and Fc United are community clubs attendance is meaningless
     
  19. Jimmy cricket

    Jimmy cricket Well-Known Member

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    Great post. The egg is a microcosm of our whole relationship with the fans. It's to be blunt any old **** will do.
     
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  20. JamDrop

    JamDrop Well-Known Member

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    With all due respect, Red Rain, and I know you're not going to like this and I may be way off the mark but from your posts you sound very much like someone who has money. I know you didn't want to discuss individual circumstances of people (and I'm certainly not expecting you to tell me yours) but that is what we are dealing with in real life. In my very short life so far I have been on both sides of the coin, growing up in Grimethorpe with an unemployed mam and miner turned factory worker dad, to being a student, to getting a quite nicely paid job and a husband with an equally nice paying job to now working part time on a tiny, tiny wage (still with the husband thankfully!). I know how I felt when I had more money and then buying a season ticket, which, whilst still notably a luxury, was in no way a struggle. Now, I have to put a lot of thought into whether I should be buying one or not, although realistically I know I am still in a pretty favourable circumstance compared to a lot of people. Previously, I could and did pay match day ticket prices, I didn't like it (infact resented it a little, which is never a good feeling to be in before the match even kicks off) but I could do it quite comfortably. Now, I physically can't afford those prices and that is the case for much of Barnsley. You talk many, many times in your post about Barnsley fans being 'unwilling' like they have a choice and they are choosing to not support the club. For many, many people they simply can't afford it. It's not unwilling (which sounds blaming) but unable.

    I'm aware those things don't stop the way football works and the finance element but it does explain how and why fans respond as they do to prices. They're not being tight and unreasonable (or 'unwilling'), they are being realistic.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2017
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