Leaving Neverland

Discussion in 'Bulletin Board' started by TitusMagee, Mar 6, 2019.

  1. TitusMagee

    TitusMagee Well-Known Member

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    Has anyone watched this yet? It's on channel 4 tonight and tomorrow night.

    I went into it with an open mind. I grew up in the 80s loving Michael Jackson and his music. I can remember watching the Bashir documentary in 2003 thinking that he was a badly damaged man who had never mentally grew up due to being a victim of childhood fame, feeling that he wasn't perhaps a paedophile.

    Having watched the majority of part 1, I felt the jury was still out at that point, however towards the end of it and subsequently watching part 2 and the Oprah interviews after, I believe them.

    I regularly assess people for trauma in therapy and felt they came across as genuine. Would be interesting to hear other's thoughts.
     
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  2. Merde Tete

    Merde Tete Well-Known Member

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    Not seen it yet but read interviews with the two blokes and see no reason to disbelieve them. I'm certainly awaiting seeing the film with interest.
     
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  3. TitusMagee

    TitusMagee Well-Known Member

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    It's quite shocking at points with the level of detail. I was skeptical in the first part but once they explained why they hadnt spoken up sooner and why they had defended him previously it made a lot of sense. If anything, it shows how someone can be groomed.
     
  4. Donny Red

    Donny Red Well-Known Member

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    Afraid that personally, I was never a fan of his Music and always thought he was a
    "weird" kind of human being. I've been reading some of the claims around the abuse
    he is now being accused of carrying out and am puzzled as to why now, the abused
    who are fully grown adults, didn't make " anyone " aware of their experiences sooner. I take
    onboard the fact that MJ is alleged to have sworn the children to secrecy on the grounds that
    they and he would be jailed and would never see each other again. Some of MJ's family are
    saying that blatant lies are being told by his accusers. It would be unrealistic to assume that
    so many people now prepared to give evidence are all lying. Like others, I will watch the programme
    and come to an opinion then. We don't yet know the motives of the boys who were abused,
    as it's been reported that they will not benefit financially and of course, the truth could be slewed in
    their favour, as MJ isn't here to contest the accusations that are being levelled at him.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2019
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  5. TitusMagee

    TitusMagee Well-Known Member

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    Will be interesting to see what you think once you've watched it.

    There are clear reasons why it has come out which you will see on viewing - both males have become fathers themselves in recent years and this has helped them to realise that what they thought at the time was loving behaviour was in fact abuse.

    If you can get hold of the Oprah interview after this I'd recommend watching that too.
     
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  6. BarnsleyReds

    BarnsleyReds Well-Known Member

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    I have yet to watch it, and without trying to come out as any sort of apologist, I think there's more than meets the eye with Jacko.

    I think he genuinely had the mind of a child. I think he was trying to live the childhood that he never had, with the sleepovers etc. I'll watch the doc, which will probably change my mind.
     
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  7. TitusMagee

    TitusMagee Well-Known Member

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    I felt exactly the same, so again will be interesting to read your thoughts after viewing both parts. It is very uncomfortable watching at times and if they are making it up then they are very, very good actors.
     
  8. Sim

    Simon De Montforte Well-Known Member

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    How credible are they. They were both witnesses for the defence first time around and presumablly everyone believed them then. Now 10 years since he died, they've suddenly come out of the woodwork and changed their story. Would a huge some of money have anything to do with it?
     
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  9. TitusMagee

    TitusMagee Well-Known Member

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    All I'd say is watch it and see for yourself. The director has stressed they haven't receive a penny from the documentary. Granted, they may be offered other things who knows. I'd keep an open mind about it all :)
     
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  10. man

    mansfield_red Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to watch it, so I'll put my thoughts here and then see how they change.

    I think he was certainly a psychologically damaged individual and a lot of that has to do with his upbringing. He essentially lived life in reverse - childhood should be a relatively carefree time of enjoyment and development which eventually gives way to the working life and the stresses associated with it. As a child Jackson was instead forced to work and from what I understand he did not enjoy much of a traditional childhood, which will have affected his emotional development and left him with a corrupted understanding of love and affection.

    As an adult, however, he had more money than he would ever spend, no need to work and was free to do with his time what he saw fit. He therefore obsessively tried to recapture his childhood, fixating on children as they represented innocence, purity and an element of his life which, no matter how hard he tried, would always be missing. I think this obsession led to him regarding children as his peers, and when combined with his inability to properly understand love, led to the various alleged offences.

    I don't think of him as a predatory paedophile in the classic sense, but nevertheless as a paedophile who escaped punishment.
     
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  11. TitusMagee

    TitusMagee Well-Known Member

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    I think that's a very fair reflection. I think what will surprise you is how complimentary both the victims and families are with regard to Jackson. It isn't "he's evil" from the outset. I agree completely regarding his upbringing. He was emotionally and physically abused. This is very common for perpretrators to have been abused themselves as you probably know. It is understandable that a dysfunctional upbringing is likely to lead to problems relating to others in later life.
     
  12. John Peachy

    John Peachy Well-Known Member

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    Clearly @TitusMagee is much more clued up about this stuff than me, but many abusers were abused as children themselves. I'm not sure there is a classic case. A number of types of mental illness are no doubt the issue, which makes it harder to characterise. All need to be given zero tolerance in terms of the law, but the causes are, I think a lot more complex.

    I haven't watched it yet, but will do in the next couple of days.

    His music was sensational at times, but Quincy Jones & various other people shaped the music too.
     
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  13. fir

    fired Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    My gut instinct is that they are telling the truth. I can't watch the programme tonight, as I'll be out. In fact I'm not sure I want to, but I will say this. MJ's nephew was on radio this afternoon, and nothing he said made me feel any more reassured. He seemed to try to discredit the accusers without giving much substance to it. I've read some pretty compelling evidence about personal details that the accusers have independently, revealed, which is consistent with each other, but other than that I don't know.
     
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  14. wombwell-red

    wombwell-red Well-Known Member

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    “Acknowledging the truth about Michael Jackson's life means acknowledging some EXTREMELY uncomfortable truths about childhood sexuality, human relationships, and society.

    Considering the implications of the following scenario (which I believe is what mostly likely happened) is so worldview-shattering and psychologically fraught for many, that it's understandable people fiercely reject doing so in a reflex of self-preservation:

    Michael Jackson had a series of romantic and sexual relationships (potentially even monogamously) with very young boys his entire life, always starting when they were pre-pubescent. He usually had one "favorite" boy at a time with whom he would share his bed, have sex, and travel the world. Two prerequisites for these relationships to turn sexual were naive, starstruck, and/or willfully ignorant family in denial, and a mutual attraction between the boy and Michael. Many of his boys were already obsessed with him and dressed up and danced like him before they even met. Michael predatory-ily cultivated their innocent attraction into an unhealthy romantic attraction. In many instances, kids he viewed as potential romantic partners (and groomed for that purpose) didn't meet both criteria so he was never sexual with them, like Corey Feldman, perhaps Macaulay Culkin, and most likely many others.

    His sexual relationships typically ended after months or years, often when the boys got older, leaving them with varying degrees of heartbreak and permanent psychological damage. The two accusers in the documentary were obviously both in love with and permanently damaged by MJ in ways they are still struggling to come to terms with.

    His relationship with Omer Bhatti was the longest lasting, from when the Omer was 8 until his mid 20s when MJ died. For all practical purposes, Omar was MJ's lover, husband, and surrogate father/brother to his children during the last years of his life. Omar was in the front row at Michael's funeral as the only non-family member and continues to spend every Christmas with the Jackson family. I'm pretry sure he'll take their secret to his grave.

    Many of these children probably believed they were in love with Michael, and he probably believed the same and used that belief to justify the sexual abuse he inflicted. It also explains why only some of his relationships turned sexual. However, accepting that means accepting the premise that not all child-abusing pedophiles have no self control and will abuse any child if given the opportunity (which is, of course, difficult for many people.) The love he shared with children was predatory, destructive, and ****** up in so many ways, but it was definitely something tangible that existed. Most distressingly, all of these boys' parents and most of society allowed it to happen. Many, many people were complicit in this abuse and profited from it in different ways.

    Michael Jackson was probably the most famous entertainer to ever live, spreading love and joy to billions of people around the world for most of his life and still continuing a decade after his death. He also personally enriched the lives of hundreds (thousands?) of children with his wealth, friendship, love and companionship. He was also a pedophile that used his wealth, fame, and influence to systematically groom and rape children, destroying minds, lives, and families in the process, all while justifying it to himself as a kind of love.

    He was all of those things. Acknowledging them as true, together, really ******* sucks, and may even be impossible. But the world is equally complex, chaotic and evil as it is simple, ordered and good.”

    Not my words but off another site
     
  15. Che

    Chef Tyke Well-Known Member

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    Having watched the documentary it is probably a bit of both.

    He was clearly one confused and sick individual
     
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  16. Che

    Chef Tyke Well-Known Member

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    What site is this from - it hits the nail on the head imho
     
  17. Donny Red

    Donny Red Well-Known Member

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    Just finished watching Part one of this documentary. My overriding concern is how
    complicit the boys parents were in letting MJ get close to their boys to the point that they could
    have been at risk. The boys recollections as to what happened are compelling, but as I said in an earlier post, MJ is no longer
    around, so he doesn't have the opportunity to deny the serious accusations that are being made against
    him. I will watch the second part and at that point, form an opinion as to whether the young
    lads who suffered abuse are plausible. What is disturbing, is that MJ seemed to have the
    need to have young boys around him and felt compelled to sleep in the same bed with them. That is
    not the normal behaviour of a healthy well balanced mature Male adult. It's interesting to recognise that two other minors,
    one of whom was Macauley Culkin, seem to have also been exposed to Jacksons overtly friendly attention,
    but have since gone to great lengths to stress, that there was never any sexual impropriety involved which
    is it what the others are saying, is quite puzzling.
     
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  18. Bossman

    Bossman Well-Known Member

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    It’s also possible thar Macauley Culkin doesn’t want to admit that he’s has sexual relations with a man.
     
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  19. fir

    fired Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    Exactly my thoughts. Macauley Culkin has had serious issues in his own life.

    I don't know what the truth is. I know what my gut instinct is. What I can't get my head around is the volume of the support for MJ from fans, and even people I know who proclaim he is definitely innocent.

    All I know is that children spending the night in the same bed as adults night after night is just wrong on every level, even if you are a superstar with a jaded past . How people can claim without any doubt that he "is innocent" is beyond me. Surely parental instinct , doubts and alarm bells start ringing in view of the evidence. I realise this is only one side of the story, but there's alot to suggest wrongdoing, just by the fact that Jackson amits having young boys in his bed. Not right.
     
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  20. BarnsleyReds

    BarnsleyReds Well-Known Member

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    I mean, neither is/was Jimmy Saville when all the allegations were made against him. That's not an excuse.
     
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