Minority Report 2019-20 v Swansea City

We haven’t been able to play that way, not in my opinion.

Dougall, Diaby & McGeehan have missed most games. There was even one game where we were without all of Dougall, McGeehan & Mowatt at Wigan.

People keep coming out with lazy comments like we should’ve tightened up but don’t explain how.

I can only guess that the argument seems to be that we could’ve somehow sat deep & soaked up pressure with Cavare / Jordan Williams at right back, Anderson & Halme at centre back, Ben Williams at left back & a midfield of Sibbick, Mowatt & Bahre with Wilks & Thomas as wingers as Brown’s also missed the majority of games.

I think that strategy would’ve left us with even fewer points & less entertainment.

If as you say we could’ve played a back 5 previously what you have done? Moved Sibbick to centre back? And put who in the middle of the park with Mowatt & Bahre? Styles? One of the kids Simoes or Odour? I’ve not seen either play until Simoes cape on today. Whichever option you go with is a very lightweight midfield.

My thinking is Stendel knew he was desperately short of defensive options & felt with the attack minded full backs we had available that we would be better served trying to play to the strengths of the players available.

I said before the international break that I thought he’d change things up with Diaby & Dougall & McGeehan coming back the game before but ultimately he never got the chance. I don’t think it’s fair for any of us to re-write history & make out like he had these defensive options & the possibility to play this formation previously

 

Exactly, leaving ourselves with only Dougall as a defensive midfielder was a huge mistake. You only had to look at the bench yesterday to see we don't have many options. When Woodrow went down i was think we are done for if he is injured.

 

I haven’t seen our keeper kick it out of his hands until today (and we nearly scored from one), this fashion for always playing it out is all well and good, but it cost Huddersfieid a goal yesterday. Sometimes you’ve got to go long, long throws into the box as well were a welcome sight.

 

Shame we sold the big man now!

 

You call it rewriting history. I call it opinion.

I have disliked the press from day 1. It always seemed to me to be responsible for us conceding as many goals as it created, because any team that kept its head, any team that passed its way through the press, found room beyond the press. When people complain on here about individual players being poor defensively, it was usually because they had been pulled out of position, and that was usually because a teammate was not where he should be, because he had been caught up field in supporting the press. I would write Minority Report last season, even though I did not post it on here, and it was full of criticism of the press, even though we were winning games. We were winning games because we had better players who were also working harder than the opposition, and that was never going to be possible this year. We needed some other way of playing, and I said so even before the start of the season. But the press was central to the way that our coach wanted to play, and he continued to play that way even after he realised that we were not able to continue playing 4-3-3. He tagged the press on to 4-4-2 and all it did was leave us exposed to counter-attack from teams with more pace. It was obvious that we were going to be badly beaten at some stage, and it happened at Preston.

I hoped that the defeat at Preston would be the catalyst for change. I hoped that Stendel would use the international break to go to 5-3-2. I was as surprised as anyone that he was not given the opportunity to try. I can only assume that there was a bust-up somewhere behind the scenes, because the announcement of his departure was really poor. As though someone was very angry and had not attempted to control it. But there had to be a fundamental change in strategy, because the press was not working, and that was obvious.

You say that 5-3-2 could not work without Dougall Diaby and McGeehan. Those players certainly improve the team, but it can work. How about

Collins

Andersen
Halme
Sibbick

Brown
Styles
Bahre
Mowatt
Ben Williams

Woodrow
Wilks

If those players are not pulled out of shape because of the press, they are at least going to be able to compete, especially when they are not up against teams as good as Swansea were. I'm sorry, but I get frustrated with those whose support of Stendel means that everything he did was perfect, and that no-one should question the way in which he elected to play the game. The good thing about football is that there is more than one way, and a good coach realises that, and considers his other options when things are not working. Clearly, 5-3-2 uses wing backs rather than wingers and so players like Jordan Green, Mamadou Thiam and Luke Thomas are abandoned by the system. I accept that 5-3-2 is weak down the flanks when the opposition overload there, as Swansea did later in the game, but If we had played the high press against Swansea, they would have played through it and destroyed us with the space beyond the press. Of that, I am absolutely convinced.

 

I agree with you about been destroyed but I don’t think we would’ve done with the players available.

That team that you’ve set out. For me, Diaby has looked our best centre back & Anderson has looked our worst so that’s a big difference.

In that team Mowatt has to be sitter one front of the defence which stops him getting forward & scoring like he did yesterday. Then your other two central midfielders are Bahre who has about 1 in 4 good games & regularly loses possession & Styles who none of us have seen much of but from the league cup game against Carlisle he looked very lightweight & Carlisle attacked straight through him numerous times. I couldn’t see that team working, not with yesterday’s style of play & formation anyway, we’d be lightweight.

You mention the abandonment of the press as the biggest difference I think it was only the second biggest difference. What I noticed more than anything yesterday was that we lined up with a team of physically strong players.

There were only Mowatt & Chaplin in the side who aren’t 6 foot. We won most of our duels & were able to win more second balls than we have this season up to now. Toby Sibbick for example didn’t even go up for corners we had that many tall players in the side.

It reminded me of that Huddersfield team that got promoted when they came to Oakwell & had pretty much a 6 foot plus team apart from Mooy & we couldn’t do much against them.

I’m also someone who’s said the press wouldn’t always work this season & that’s why I felt keeping or replacing Kieffer Moore properly & having another defensive midfielder were very important to us.

I’m not saying everything Stendel did was perfect I criticised the tactics are fair bit in the first half of last season as I felt we were too attack minded at times, Sunderland away been the obvious example but I think he’s got a lot more right than wrong & I think he’s tried to do the best job he could with the players available to him.

I think we also have to remember that just because some tactics don’t work it doesn’t necessarily mean the alternative that we come up with would, as Heckingbottom & Hill would say we can be at our very best & we can still get beat at this level due to the quality we’re up against.

If I look at our side I see Mowatt, Woodrow, Dougall, Diaby & Cavare as our 5 most important players.

I think Mowatt’s missed 2 games, Woodrow 1, Dougall everyone up to yesterday, Diaby more than half, Cavare been in & out due to disciplinary reasons & injuries. It’s tough enough at this level when we’ve got a full side out as Swansea showed in the second half yesterday, it’s even tougher without key players

 

Maybe the various analysis is right, maybe the tactics made a big difference or maybe that game today that finished 1-1 could quite easily have been 1-2, 1-3, 2-1, 3-1, 2-2 or 3-3.

We missed a couple of sitters but our keeper also saved us twice, in previous games we have lost by the odd goal as he hasn’t performed a couple of miraculous saves, and we have also missed gilt edged chances before.

So was anything radically different from before or was it just a case of a different result on a different day.

I think we’ve performed OK for most of the games this season bar the obvious couple, what was different today was the reduction in the number of individual mistakes, and ones that directly cost us goals (see Derby) there was only a couple instead of a hatful, was this down to a change in tactics? Maybe but I don’t think we’ve suddenly turned a corner, I was happy with today’s performance but I’ve been happy at previous ones where we’ve lost by the odd goal too.

Bottom line for me is if we don’t start creating more clear cut chances for strikers and also our midfielders continue to not shoot straight we will still continue to get beat by the odd goal more often than not.

 

Yesterday was more of the same. Failing to score when we were on top and conceding a poor goal. Without Collins in the second half we would have lost the game. We played well and didn’t win. The mark of a team lacking quality in both offensive and defensive thirds.

 

Loved Collins booting it long and our long throws. We were more dangerous than we've been for ages by using both options and Dimi was a constant threat who was unlucky not to get an assist.

 

Theres something on twitter saying cavare and diaby are are a doubt for west brom.
Again we will be facing a very good side but with a reduction in quality. If this is the case, we will see if Red Rain's assumption that its all about the formation will triumph. I hope hes right tbh, im not on here to score points. It will be interesting to see if our temp coach goes with a different formation away from home or sticks with th e 3 5 2 / 5 3 2.

 

Interesting discussion.

As the OP said, it’s only one game so rather early to draw any conclusions. What’s clear to me though is, the best, most successful, most entertaining teams can and do play out from the back. Long term, i’d hope we could get back to that position. HOWEVER, we have some very limited players and surely there can be any doubt that, whatever the want to call it, ‘Hoof ball’ or ‘taking no chances’ or ‘defenders being proper defenders’. That has to be the best thing for us while we have this quality of player and bearing in mind the position we’re in.
Those occasions when we have our defenders facing their own goal are nearly as frightening for the crowd as they are for the players!

 

I think that had more of an impact yesterday than how we set up, or whether we did or didn’t press (I still think we closed down the opposition when they had the ball, and tried to not sit too deep, you could see Murray directing that on the touch line).

What we didn’t do, was try to play out from the back as much and as deep, meaning we didn’t lose the ball really deep and ask defenders to be playmakers and therefore make errors, and make errors that gave the opposition goal scoring opportunities. It worked better for us.

 

Nice to see the keeper kicking cos we want to see the ball in dangerous areas for our opponents defenders to deal with not our defenders being put under pressure by ourselves. We even dared to have a player part way up field when they hed a corner (not quite haif way line but heading int reight direction.

We didn`t tire as quickly as usual, but that was a game after an International break and with players wanting to get in the new gaffers good books we maybe back to a good haif an hour on Tuesday. Lets hope we make that good 30 mins pay.

 

I agree. I hate it when we don't leave someone up the pitch. I sometimes wonder what the opposition would do if we put 3 men on the halfway line when defending a corner. Would they have to leave more men back or would they carry on regardless? I'm not advocating it as a strategy, mind you, but it does make me wonder.

 

Mmmm... Didn't we have the best defensive record in all 4 leagues last season.. with 46 games of the "press"

Or did I dream that..?

 

Don’t let the facts get in the way of opinion.

 

You didn't dream it. But I would argue we had better players individually and certainly a better team.

 

All very good points.

T

 

And were playing in the division our fans used to term the pub league.

 

The coach said after the game that Cavare and Diaby had muscle injuries (not straight forward cramp), but he said before the game that Diaby and Dougall were not quite ready, and both played.

I think that you are being a bit naughty. You say that I assume that 5-3-2 will triumph, but I have said nothing of the sort. Indeed, I went to great lengths in my first paragraph to say exactly the opposite. We had to work very hard on Saturday, and unless the coach is able to freshen things up, I think tiredness will count against us.