non contentious fact about the EU HoL debate...

Discussion in 'Bulletin Board' started by Tekkytyke, Mar 1, 2017.

  1. Tek

    Tekkytyke Well-Known Member

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    Posting this as I just don't understand the latest debate in the House of Lords and BBC headlines regarding this ' bargaining chip for EU citizens in UK and UK citizens in EU state', for the following reason..

    When the UK leaves the EU, UK citizens living in EU states will become non EU migrants. Therefore the EU will have no say in migration policy. INDIVIDUAL EU member states will determine policy for non EU migrants as they do now Therefore the EU CANNOT give assurances or make threats. It is therefore NOT a bargaining chip.
    Therefore there is no reason we cannot give assurances to EU citizens living in UK now as it does not weaken our position when it comes to UK citizens (of which I am one) living in an EU member state.

    Besides, whilst leaving the EU means we probably leave the ECHR, the remaining EU member states still belong, Putting aside the illogic and impracticality of deporting millions of UK citizens, it would certainly breach Human rights. They would also be open to discrimination claims if they fail to evict non-EU migrants (Americans, Australians Africans, Asians at the same time.
    EU citizens living in the UK would not be afforded the same level of protection if we left the ECHR, although I cannot see any logical reason why we would want to expel them. Again no-one believes it would be an action we would undertake.

    So why, are we talking about using EU UK migrants as bargaining chips again?
     
  2. Ors

    Orsen Kaht Guest

    The tricky bit though is that once you get into an EU country, you are in the EU as a whole, with the freedom of movement that that brings. That individual member states can't have individual arrangements is one of the bugbears that brexiteers complained of. But two further thoughts.

    One. There would be nothing to stop us from saying that EU citizens currently residing in the UK may stay so long as the corresponding right continues to be respected in their country of origin.

    Two. Even without that safeguard, we would be right to just declare that anyone currently here by [insert future date] may remain anyway. Many of these EU citizens are performing valuable jobs (particularly in the NHS) and we simply can't afford to lose them with no lead in if we want some of our essential services to continue to operate.

    But if all else fails, I would lead the campaign for you to remain in Italy, Tekktyke. After all, look what you did to our form when you came over for the Wolves game :)
     
  3. ark

    ark104 (v2) Well-Known Member

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    Why will leaving the EU have any impact on our being signatories to the European Convention on Human Rights??
     
  4. Sco

    Scoff Well-Known Member

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    The Tories want to repeal the Human Rights Act (its in their manifesto) and that would probably take us out of the ECHR.
     
  5. Sco

    Scoff Well-Known Member

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    Now, can you kindly tell all your Brexiteer friends that, because they really don't seem to understand. And that isn't just the big chunk of them that want to deport anyone that cannot trace direct descendants back 50 generations or so - the home office are currently evicting (or rejecting PR applications) from people who have lived here for 20+ years and are married to British citizens...
     
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  6. Tek

    Tekkytyke Well-Known Member

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    Good job I didn't mention the previous visit the year before i.e. Hartlepool. Anyway the Freedom of movement you refer to I thought only applied to EU migrants. Anyone applying from countries outside the EU have to conform to individual country visa requirements. This is one of the things that UK was criticised for by many people (some on here included) in that EU migration was one thing but control over immigration from non EU countries was out of control. As I pointed out, once we leave the EU we no longer have freedom of movement either way and fall under the non-EU countries visa/entry requirements which vary from country to country. The EU do NOT control those requirements.

    So in a nutshell we should not argue that stating EU migrants currently resident in the UK can stay in no way 'weakens our hand' in negotiations because the EU as an organisation has no control over individual member states domestic law regarding legal non EU migrants. (notwithstanding refugee and illegal immigrants under emergency directives). That makes all this HoL debate nonsensical.
     
  7. Tek

    Tekkytyke Well-Known Member

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    Did you bother to read what I posted? I am saying that we should state categorically now that EU migrants currently resident in the UK can stay. It is NOT dependent on EU reciprocating because they cant as they have no say in non EU migrants resident in EU member states (which we would become once we leave the EU)
    Please provide evidence that a big chunk "want to deport anyone that cannot trace direct descendants back 50 generations" You cant can you ? Presumably, you are referencing the recent incident of the Singapore woman who has been deported (I agree by the way that the inflexibilty of the I
    UK immigration authorities and the 'rules are rules' is shocking'). However, she failed to follow the correct procedures and exceeded the timeframe for lliving abroad.

    You are just one of the loud minority (71% of people in Barnsley voted leave) who make things up to fit your narrow minded Left wing agenda.

    I have in the past tried to be civilised when posting (and still am to some of the more reasonable poster on herenow ) but find my patience wearing quite thin when dealing with people who dont even bother to read posts properly before responding and especially those who make up 'fact' to support their distorted political views and resort to personal abuse rather than debate with reasoned arguments
     
  8. Sup

    SuperTyke Well-Known Member

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    No they didnt. only 47.7% of eligible voters in Barnsley voted to leave.
     
  9. BBB

    BBBFC Well-Known Member

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    Am I missing something here? Is this saying that we're going to leave the European Court of Human Rights when leaving the EU, then pointing out that after we've done so, UK citizens being deported from the EU for being non-EU migrants would be a breach of human rights?
     
  10. Sco

    Scoff Well-Known Member

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    I read what you posted. I completely agree with you. We should offer the EU citizens in the UK the opportunity to stay if they wish to, irrespective of the EU countries offering the same to UK citizens. Although anecdotal evidence points to an increased rate of them already taking up citizenship in their new countries.

    Whether you want to admit it or not, there is a racist element attached to the Brexit vote. Maybe a minority, but a vocal one - the EDL have been marching again in Rotherham (against the explicit wishes of some of the victims of child abuse they are claiming to support), the BNP, elements of UKIP, Britain First. Lots of loud voices not just wanting an end to immigration but to deport them too. Its only anecdotal but I've heard conversations where people were demanding to know when they would all be sent back.

    I was actually referring to the French-born professor who had been in the UK for 20+ years except for part of his training course, who was turned down for PR after spending part of his training in South Africa. Married to a Scottish woman with a kid and the family were having to leave the UK. It was in the Guardian the other day, but also the Sri Lankan engineering student who had been here since she was 12 and the woman from Singapore (who was out of the country to look after her terminally ill parents and now can't provide care for her husband). Those are just the cases making the news. Apparently all EU-born students are now liable for deportation unless they have some insurance (CSI), with the Home Office backdating the rules without telling them and the insurance not actually being available to students (or at least they are having trouble finding a supplier).

    For the record, I don't believe I have ever abused you. I think you are wrong in your views, but you are articulate (which is better than a lot of the Leave side are on other forums whose only debating technique is "We won, get over it"!) and bring your perspective to the debate. We might find out who was right in a few years time, but my personal opinion is that the government have between 3 and 8 years to make Brexit a complete success*. Every general election in future will be fought with rejoining the EU as a major issue, and there is a strong chance that the legacy of Brexit will be Britain back in the EU, losing the £ and losing the opt-outs and rebates we enjoyed now. I am now of the opinion that a Leave vote was the best thing at the time - it stops repeated calls for another referendum from UKIP and gives us the chance to see exactly how bad it will be for the country.

    *At the moment, the UK average wage is £26,500. That was $38,690 in June, its now $32,595. A difference of $6,095 or £4995. That is similar in Euros, Rupees or any other currency. I will only accept Brexit is a success for the country once that difference is positive in our favour.
     
  11. Tek

    Tekkytyke Well-Known Member

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    UK may leave the ECHR but the remaining EU member states e.g. Spain, Italy, France etc are still signed up to it and bound by the convention. Whilst much of it applies to EU citizens (which you rightly say we would no longer be) there is a double responsibility that member states have to abide by ECRH and there is quite a lot of reference to the fact that some protection is no dependent on EU citizenship) That is to say, much of the Convention relates to treatment of people residing, living and working in EU member states regardless of nationality . International law also covers people who have settled in a country under something known as 'acquired rights' This almost certainly would prevent the UK expelling settled residents in the UK as well as preventing EU member states expelling UK expats. 'acquired rights' as I said is NOT dependent on EU citizenship, notr has the EU commission, parliament any say on individual states deportation or migration rules other tha the basic tenet of freedom of movement within member states. for EU citizens Each state has its own laws for migration and deportation of non-EU aliens. This is why the whole argument regarding UK deporting EU citizens post Brexit is nonsense (as is the fear mongering of expats being expelled. IT WILL NOT HAPPEN.
    Certain changes may come about from different states regarding work permits, visa requirement etc but that is not what all this HoL kerfuffle is about. It is just posturing and makes me wonder how much the Lords actually understand about the issue.
    I have looked into this carefully as someone living in Italy having moved here and sold everything in the UK I am one of those that would be affected.
     
  12. Tek

    Tekkytyke Well-Known Member

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    I apologise for my outburst*. Your post is also articulate and, whilst we disagree on the basic decision, My decision to vote leave (a bit like a turkey voting for christmas living in Italy), is based on my belief that, it is bad to leave and will damage the economy BUT remaining would be even worse given that I am convinced the whole EU project is collapsing as the reluctance to change (unless it is for even further Federalisation) is obvious. The Euro is also unsustainable.
    * I had had a bad few days as I allowed poster Jimmy Cricket to get under my skin. Having had frequent run-ins with him as he personalises debate and makes snide insinuations and then wonders why people (well me at least) react. The final straw was when he implied I had no morals as well as in the past calling me racist, vile etc. etc. You unfortunately got the flak whilst I was still 'all guns firing' which was wrong, and again, I apologise.
    In reality non of us know the future, certainly not Economists who usually get things wrong more often than they do right. Therefore, I may be proved totally wrong in what I think the outcome will be, but by the same token I do not see how the avid remainers on here can be so certain that Brexit will destroy the economy and the Government will remove all workers rights and we will end up in the poor house. Time will reveal all I suppose.

    PS I, like you are very concerned at the 'Trumpesque' line that UK immigration are taking with long term non-EU migrants. The inflexible approach 'rulse-are-rules' is leading to some very unfair outcomes for people. Some people abuse or do not understand the system and fall foul of it but some of these highlighted cases are just unfair. I am very suspicious of this ' must have private insurance' rule they dredged up.
     
  13. Ors

    Orsen Kaht Guest

    I think that what quite a few of the peers have said is that we shouldn't consider ourselves as having a "hand" in the negotiations that consists of the future of EU residents in the UK. They say that people shouldn't be used as a bargaining chip. And I agree with them. It's not fair to the EU citizens themselves, but even if you disregard their interests it is not to our own advantage because in many instances they are helping deliver important services which would struggle without them (e.g. NHS). Given the massive vote for the amendment in the HOL, I wouldn't be surprised if the commons declines to reverse the amendment. And get ready for more, because Lord Pannick is tabling an amendment next week on Parliament having a "meaningful" say at the end of the A50 negotitaions!
     
  14. MDG

    MDG Well-Known Member

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    Well the result was 68.3% to leave. Albeit 69.95% turnout.... People who don't vote are discounted and have zero say.
     
  15. Sco

    Scoff Well-Known Member

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    Plenty of reasons for people not to vote on a specific day (illness, injury, holiday, work, etc), but that doesn't mean they have zero say. It just means they didn't have a say *then*.
     
  16. MDG

    MDG Well-Known Member

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    Nope, zero say and none of them should moan about the outcome of a referendum or election when they do not vote. If you are going on holiday, there's postal voting etc. Polls are open from silly o'clock in the morning to late at night so work is no real excuse. If you work away and are not sure of availability then postal vote. Only exceptions to the rule I guess are people coming down with a serious illness etc. But those numbers will be tiny..Especially as political parties these days will even drive you to the polling stations to make sure they get their votes.
     
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  17. JamDrop

    JamDrop Well-Known Member

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    I agree they shouldn't moan if they didn't vote but I think that is very different to just lumping them in with the leave percentage as Tekky did above. My parents didn't vote as they were on holiday and didn't bother to get a postal vote due to indifference to the whole thing. (I don't agree with their decision to do that incidentally, just saying what happened). As it happens, my parents haven't moaned abut the result or ever spoken about it as far as I am aware but they certainly weren't ardent Leavers and it would be a gross misrepresentation to imply that they were.
     
  18. Con

    Conan Troutman Well-Known Member

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    No offence intended to the OP, but 95% of your posts appear to be about the EU and/or immigration.

    Is there an EU/immigration forum you post about Barnsley Football Club on?
     
  19. Jimmy viz

    Jimmy viz Well-Known Member

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    I'd really like to think there is a very confused immigration / EU forum somewhere that continually gets posts about the genius that was Paul Cross or the beautiful left foot of Owen Archdeacon.
     
  20. Con

    Conan Troutman Well-Known Member

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    Someone started a thread about whether to leave Vilnius for post-brexit Lincolnshire and got an account of our poxy 2-1 win at Bromsgove as a response.
     

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