The Long Term Under Johnno

Discussion in 'Bulletin Board ARCHIVE' started by Conan Troutman, Dec 6, 2015.

  1. Con

    Conan Troutman Well-Known Member

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    Let's say this season we finish 20th and he keeps his job. 20th position is a resounding failure but we will have avoided the ultimate insult of being in the fourth division.

    I said earlier in the season that our aims should be champions, runners up, play off winners - in that order. We are going to fall short of that by a thousand miles. The board, manager and players have failed.

    Based on what you have seen in the past nine and a half months from this manager, do you believe he can keep us up this season, then get us promoted next? If not, he is never going to be the right manager for us so there's really no point in persevering with him.

    Yesterday's result does not change this.
     
  2. SirPsychoSexy

    SirPsychoSexy Banned Idiot

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    A very good way to look at it.
    However we will never know truly until the board and owner completely changes the transfer policy and let's LeeJay identify his own players. And above all else, scrap the stupid loan players unless an emergency.


    Sent from mi bloody iPhone
     
  3. SirPsychoSexy

    SirPsychoSexy Banned Idiot

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    Double post.


    Sent from mi bloody iPhone
     
  4. Red

    Red Rain Well-Known Member

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    And do you guarantee that the next bloke in the job will achieve what you want.

    There are no guarantees in football, but your logic assumes that there are. It assumes that the next bloke is automatically a success. Given that our last 14 managers were not a success, I think that is a false assumption, don't you.
     
  5. Whi

    Whitey Guest

    We are all aware of the situation we're in, pal. I don't think we need hourly reminders on here. I saw us put in a great shift yesterday, saw some very exciting attacking football and left with hope, heartened by it. It's clear that they're sticking with Johnson and giving him the January window. So no amount of bairning on here is going to change it.

    I'll take it week by week, game by game rather than trying to predict the future.
     
  6. Duntpasstome

    Duntpasstome Well-Known Member

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    It's all down to luck, if LJ keeps hammill and drops on a big centre half and winnall scores 20+ we could really push on and he can be seen as successful and a top manager and get a dream move to the blunts or if hammill hourihane leave and the defence doesn't improve we will be looking at league 2 and LJ will be on the dole. Just look at Jose, LVG you can't say they are poor managers it's just a bit of luck and the players gelling that can be the difference.

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  7. Con

    Conan Troutman Well-Known Member

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    Of course there are guarantees. I will guarantee that Man City will finish higher in the Premiership than Bournemouth. I will guarantee that Morecambe and Accrington will never reach the premiership or win the FA Cup.

    There are no guarantees that one manager will do better than an other, but even you, with your beyond logical patience and anti-supporter agenda, you must admit it looks very unlikely that anyone could do worse than the current manager.
     
  8. Con

    Conan Troutman Well-Known Member

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    So the key to Mourinho's success is luck?
     
  9. Dja

    Django Well-Known Member

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    I think he's a dreadful manager.

    I think the individual qualities of Hammill & Hourihane will mean we end up mid table.

    If you look through our side & compare it to others in the bottom half its laughable we are where we are.
     
  10. Merde Tete

    Merde Tete Well-Known Member

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    I think what he's trying to say is that often the difference between success and failure is very fine margins, which lie beyond the manager's control. A missed penalty, an injury crisis, a terrible refereeing decision. How different might Keith Hill's tenure have been if he hadn't lost his entire midfield after Christmas in 2011/12? Cappello's England reign may well have been very different if Lampard's goal against Germany had been allowed to stand.
     
  11. Red

    Red Rain Well-Known Member

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    My patience is not beyond logic. On the contrary, it is based on logic. The logic is

    Football teams are built slowly, making only a few changes each season.
    Football teams are built by establishing a strong core of players that know how the game is played, and building around them.
    Wholesale change to the structure of a team, with insufficient funds to attract the right players is bound to fail.
    The SCMP rules in this division ensure that teams that fall out of the higher division will be forced into wholesale reconstruction at exactly to wrong time.
    There will be insufficient funds to reconstruct effectively in the short term, therefore the rebuilding must extend over several seasons.
    Football team cycles are longer than 1 season, in fact they are probably about 4 seasons, therefore it is pointless to judge managers in less than a cycle.
    The most important factors in changing the long term momentum of a football club are money and patience, and we have not much of the former.

    This is the basic logic that I have used and I invite you to pick holes in my logic, based on logical argument. I would warn you that I am not interested in purely emotional clap trap. Only logic will do when discussing our current position logically.
     
  12. Duntpasstome

    Duntpasstome Well-Known Member

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    No not at all but mouriniho is struggling this year and could be sacked but that to me is down to his team not gelling like last year, he didn't get stones who would have made a difference to his ageing defence and they just missing that bit of luck that they had last year because other than that what is the difference.

    All I'm saying is that every one has good and bad spells. LJ has had a big bad spell and it may turn good but that's a lot to do with luck in recruitment and them players working together well, there's no guarantees otherwise no one would struggle. Not every manager who is near the bottom of the league is a crap manager.

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  13. Duntpasstome

    Duntpasstome Well-Known Member

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    That's it cheers the Keith hill comparison is spot on, I always wonder what that team could have gone on to do, same with if ward hignett and dyer could have played together longer, I'm sure we lost ward after the Huddersfield 7-1 game. I may be wrong.

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  14. LDR

    LDRed Well-Known Member

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    "Long term" and "Lee Johnson" make me shudder when put together.
     
  15. Duntpasstome

    Duntpasstome Well-Known Member

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    Not if he wins a lot more than he loses from now on. I couldn't care less who the manager is as long as we are not struggling, if he doesn't improve get shut if he does support him easy.

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  16. sadbrewer

    sadbrewer Well-Known Member

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    I agree 20th would be a resounding failure, aim to finish champions is right...but historically we've no reason to expect that, I doubt anyone on here can remember last time we were champions. I think LJ has largely wasted the season in persisting with 1 up front, but despite that in large parts we've played some decent football that's not had enough end product and then been compounded by conceding with the oppositions first and often, first of very few attacks.
    The coming second half of the season will be critical, we've been hammered by no-one so far, and if he can resolve the balance between possession and end product with his (newly found...and forced on him) attacking intent..we could start to do much better...we shall see.
     
  17. Con

    Conan Troutman Well-Known Member

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    Your logic is flawed as you are basing it what happened 40-50 years ago. The game has changed beyond recognition since then. Phil Chambers might have joined the club in 1969 and we got promoted in 1978 - this does not happen. How many players stay with a club beyond their current contract these days? Not many.

    I'm going to point to Coventry City as an example of a club we should be measuring ourselves against and you will respond with "I don't follow Coventry so can't comment/what they do is irrelevant to me", but they are for more pertinent examples than those you base your logic on. Coventry appointed Tony Mowbray after we appointed Johnson and they finished six places below us in the table last season. They released ten players over the summer. They brought six permanent signings in spending £25,000. They have brought in eight loanees and 13 players have made club debuts this season. Nothing long term there. They are also bound by SCMP like ourselves and the rest of the division.

    Their situation is no different to ours but they are polar opposites to us on the pitch because they have a far, far better manager. I can't be bothered to look at Gillingham or Burton in the same way but I suspect the situation won't be much different.

    Regarding SCMP, this is an advantage to us. We can only spend 60% of our turnover. As can Coventry, Gillingham, Burton and Walsall. However, with he exception of 3-4 clubs we will have the highest turnover in the vision. Should work in our favour if managed correctly.

    By the way, if you remove emotion and rely on logic, Barnsley Football club is dead. Emotion is the only reason to support them because logically you'd support someone more successful.
     
  18. Redstar

    Redstar Well-Known Member

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    Are you Mr. Spock?
     
  19. Redstar

    Redstar Well-Known Member

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    That last bit is bang on
     
  20. archey

    archey Well-Known Member

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    Let's say we finish 10th.

    After a strong 2nd half of the season. Win the JPT and go into next season with a good run of results behind us.

    Would you still sack Lee Johnson because we haven't finished in the top 6?

    We aren't going down this season, I am 100% sure.
     

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