The Long Term Under Johnno

Discussion in 'Bulletin Board ARCHIVE' started by Conan Troutman, Dec 6, 2015.

  1. Con

    Conan Troutman Well-Known Member

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    I'm not saying we should expect to be champions but that has to be the realistic aim and the standard against which the manager should be judged.
     
  2. Con

    Conan Troutman Well-Known Member

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    I sincerely hope we finish 10th - but we won't. If we do I will start reconsidering my opinion of Johnson and would like to see if he can keep that momentum going. If we finish in the bottom five or six he should go.
     
  3. Dja

    Django Well-Known Member

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    Which makes it even more bizarre that we moved on Berry, Lalkovic, Jabo, Turnbull, Bailey etc & decided that we'd unsettle the squad even more over the summer by bringing in a load of short term loanees.

    I think it's completely wrong to suggest you can't judge a manager in less than a 4 year cycle. Some of the things Johnson has done defy any logic and you didn't need 4 years to realise he was making appalling mistakes.

    Constantly switching a young, inexperienced back 4 into a 5 & back again, changing goalkeepers regularly, making 3 subs at once when you have at least a point from the game at the time in the match he made the subs. These are errors I wouldn't expect a sunday league manager to make.

    And then you've got several players who despite them been young & seemingly at a stage in their development when they should be improving are going backwards under Johnson - Davies, Smith, Nyatanga, Scowen, Pearson & Winnall.

    And then new signings Roberts, Townsend & Mawson who all started well but have got worse under him.

    I'm fully in favour of giving managers time but they've got to show you something. There's got to be something there that suggests they have potential to succeed.

    I felt Danny was in a fantastic position to build from this summer just gone had he been allowed to stay in charge. In fact Johnson was too but instead of bringing in them 3 or 4 experienced players that were needed to challenge for promotion we did the exact opposite & brought in kids on loan.

    You might argue he's not making the signings but he has an input, see Wilkinson & we can't pass the blame on to others for all the other errors he's made.
     
  4. Red

    Red Rain Well-Known Member

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    You pick on Coventry because at this moment in time they happen to be doing better than we are. But if you had picked on Coventry at any point within the previous 4 years, they would have been seen as a basket case. Indeed just 2 years ago they were forced to move out of their ground and play in a different town. Your example is selective, both in choice of club and in choice of time, and that is one of the reasons that I prefer to stick with Barnsley, that and we both know all of the details in the examples that we quote.

    The thread that I started the other day, from which you quote, also gave the example of Mel Machin being important to the success of Danny Wilson because 5 of the players that were in Wilson's promotion team were signed by Machin. This is also during the period of freedom of contract, so it perhaps has more relevance to the current day. My argument is not that players can be persuaded to stay if they get a better offer from a team that is higher in the league structure. It is not, because that is bound to happen, and it is what helps fund our budgets. It is that it is wrong to make wholesale changes that destroy continuity and structure. It is that it is wrong to keep bringing in new managers, who have different ideas, and who want to have a mass clear out of players. As I said above, it destroys continuity, it destroys structure and it begins a new cycle that will probably take 4 season to come to fruition. The lack of patience that is the key to this process will ensure that the new guy will also be long gone before the cycle can complete a full turn.... and so the process goes on.

    I know that football is an emotional game, and on a Saturday afternoon I am every bit as emotional at the next guy. Saturdays are for emotion, but Monday to Friday is for thinking and logic.
     
  5. Archey

    Archey Well-Known Member

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    I feel we're in a false position at the minute, in the sense that we've not been performing like a team at the bottom of the league. Obviously the league table doesn't lie, but we can't keep going on like we are.

    If we finish bottom 10 I believe it will be a massive failure, however I do not feel Johnson will be sacked as I feel if we were going to make a change, we'd have done so by now. The result yesterday may not change anything in terms of league position (how can it) but it's proof that we can perform against the best teams in this league, regardless of your opinion of the competition it was in.

    Patience was always going to be key with such a young squad. I think we'll eventually begin to click.
     
  6. Redstar

    Redstar Well-Known Member

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    Monday to Friday "logic" should tell us that the Saturday emotion is a waste of time on the balance of probabilities.

    In those four seasons of patience do you have markers to indicate actual progress is being made or do you just blindly go with it, regardless of what is happening on the pitch?

    It's worthless saying this but having 11 players potentially leaving mid season isn't building.
     
  7. Red

    Red Rain Well-Known Member

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    There is no doubt that errors were made during the summer. There is also no doubt that because we did not get the players that we wanted, we had to rely upon loan signings, most of whom have not been equal to the task. However, the management team as a whole has stood up and admitted that they made mistakes.

    There is no point holding a grudge against the next manager just because you did not want the previous one sacked. I always argue against sacking managers, as a matter of principle, but when he has gone I immediately move on, it is a case of, the king is dead, long live the king. A past mistake should never affect the next decision.

    There is absolutely no way that any manager should be judged part way through a playing cycle. In a previous thread I tried to show that our successful managers have benefited from the work of their successful predecessors, that they did not make wholesale changes which meant that the playing cycle had to begin again. The biggest problem in the game is that the pressure exerted by fans forces boards to change managers too frequently, and that the new manager is forced, by the failure of his predecessor, to become the new broom that sweeps both good and bad players out the door. All this does is begin a new cycle that the new guy will never have a chance of following to its end... ad infinitum.

    The only way that the cycle can be broken is to stick with a guy who is not initially successful, because the next guy, and the one after that are all going to be under the same pressure to succeed, with the self-same odds against.
     
  8. Redstar

    Redstar Well-Known Member

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    So you are arguing that we should not judge Johnson for another 3 1/2 seasons? Regardless of what happens?
     
  9. Con

    Conan Troutman Well-Known Member

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    Of course I'm going to use Coventry as an example as they are top of the league and doing it in a manner that you say, logically, is impossible. You've embellished my example and negated your own argument by showing the adversity under which it has been achieved.

    I was going to give details of a second club outperforming us without any long term strategy or foundation but as predicted you only want to discuss Barnsley. The only way to measure your club is against rivals and what they are doing. I'd suggest you do that and look at football in 2015, not 1965 or 1991.
     
  10. Dub

    Dubai Tyke New Member

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    Look, it was a good result yesterday and we even may win this trophy now, but that shouldn't detract from the fact that we presently have the worst manager in our history, and there is a snowballs chance in hell of him ever getting us promotion from this league even if the team somehow avoids relegation which in main part would be down to the players and not to him.
     
  11. Red

    Red Rain Well-Known Member

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    There is no doubt that we made mistakes during the summer transfer window, and we did not get the players that we wanted. The loans that we have had in the first half of the season are a direct result of these mistakes, and you are right that if all eleven of the players leave, this will represent another huge mistake. However, the whole of the management team has held their hands up and admitted culpability for that error. I hope that we keep the players that were successful in the first half, lose the players that have been unsuccessful and bring in a limited number of new players on full permanent contracts. I hope that we have spent the 4 months since August in scouting the right players, and that we will be much more successful.

    Unfortunately, I do not have a crystal ball, and I cannot predict the future, even by studying the past. I can only say that if the past is any guide, if we keep changing managers every 12 months, our long term decline will continue.
     
  12. Whi

    Whitey Guest

    Really?
     
  13. Dub

    Dubai Tyke New Member

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    I think that's a gimme Whitey
     
  14. Redstar

    Redstar Well-Known Member

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    But you've not answered the question; do you give ANY MANAGER four seasons regardless of results?
     
  15. Bak

    Baka Well-Known Member

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    When did they re-appoint Keith? Why wasn't I told?

    That season ticket's going back.
     
  16. Jimmy viz

    Jimmy viz Well-Known Member

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    I have to say Second only to with Spackman for me and mainly based on him being a nicer bloke.
     
  17. Red

    Red Rain Well-Known Member

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    You have faulted my example because I have looked back into our past to try and draw lessons from comparisons with our two most successful teams. I could equally have pointed towards the teams that were successful merely because they kept us in the second tier of football for 20 seasons. Equally, I could have looked at what has gone wrong during the last 14 seasons and drawn lessons from that as well. All of these lessons that I would have drawn exactly the same conclusions because failure points to decisions that we made that were wrong just as success points to decisions that we made that were right. I think that that is much more relevant than making a comparison with a different club that has a much larger population to call upon for support and which is probably at a different point in the playing cycle.

    However, if it makes you happy to keep selecting your comparisons from teams that are currently achieving, then continue to do so. But be warned, I will continue to point out the weaknesses in your logic.
     
  18. Dr Zazlos

    Dr Zazlos Banned Idiot

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    You need to have a conversation with Mr Spock.
    Then your can write your lengthy posts to your hearts content and end up with stalemate.
     
  19. Bri

    Brian Mahoneys Waist Well-Known Member

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    There's no doubt in my mind that when we come out of this bad spell (starting next Saturday) the manager and players alike will be mentally stronger for the experience.What we can't afford to do is beat BFC with a stick and using every future defeat to stick the boot in.When we climb the table the past is gone.No point looking back all the time.
     
  20. Dr Zazlos

    Dr Zazlos Banned Idiot

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    Next week is massive and that is why I'm gunna go to support the players, sounds like they deserve it after yesterday's efforts, but make no mistake if we lose then Johnson must carry the can.
    3 points and a decent display will hopefully lift us off the bottom and add to the festive cheer!
    You Reds!
     

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