This latest police shooting

They had five or six seconds to do something different where he was unarmed and they outnumbered him.
I'd agree that policing is a difficult job and not everything is black and white. Unsurprisingly I disagree with you that if someone has a criminal record they should have no complaints if the only solution when arresting him is to shoot him seven times in the back.
But then I also find it unsurprising that that's your stance on this kind of issue.

 

Sorry, got a bit confused there. Not unusual for me.

 

I used to travel a lot in America for business and the mistake most brits make is that, because we speak sort of the same language, it's not a foreign country. America is the strangest place. People don't react in the way you expect them to, from the guy who shouts at you to stay behind the line when you arrive, to the girl on the hotel desk who speaks fluent robot, to trying to order a sandwich in a deli. I'm not generalising about Americans btw, I met some amazing and kind people there, but the culture is definitely different. The whole attitude to the ownership and use of firearms is baffling. They carry guns to make them safe and don't see that the proliferation of firearms does exactly the opposite. It puts them at risk from criminals, neighbours and definitely the police. When you put guns into the equation you have to think differently from when they're not.

 

Although I completely agree with your sentiment, and the fact that us policing is in a total mess.

I wanted to ask you a couple of questions,

How many people/percentage in the uk carry guns on a regular basis?

How many times have you had a gun pointed at you/been shot at?

What is your interpretation of excessive force?

Do you carry a gun in your day to day job?

What is parva?

I’m not trying to argue against, just wanted to know the situation.

 

There are very few guns on the street in the UK, however corrosive liquids and knife crime is an issue.
I've had an imitation fire arm pointed at me before its frightening.
PAVA not parva (autopopulated) spray is an aerosol which will incapacitate.

Regarding force, there are many ways to firstly communicate with folk. Tactical communications with a baton/gun or without are vital. Our firearms guys are very vocal and clear. Before a bullet is fired folk are made aware of what will happen (unless you've a potential IED strapped to you).
If we discharge a weapon in this country 1 or 2 rounds are used. The situation will have been controlled even when lethal force is used.
Lethal force can only be used if there is clear evidence that someone is going to try to kill you.
In America everyone's got guns, that's accepted. Does that mean therefore cops should apply a shoot first policy?
Why 7 rounds? Why not 200 rounds? Both 7 or 200 rounds show no control.
Restraints, take downs and pressure points. British police and other European counterparts are trained in some level of ground fighting. Quality restraint techniques are essential (George Floyd). I very rarely see US officers apply them. Taser, baton or gun are used straight away, restraints are used when the suspect is either wounded or incapacitated.

If a US citizen of any colour discharges a weapon illegally and someone gets hurt or dies they get prison time. If they kill a cop they'll get life.
Looking beyond gang warfare, and personal defence reasons. Why would a citizen shoot a police officer? Same in UK, knifes are on the street, are police being stabbed routinely? No because of the punishment.

It's now got to the point where the police are a rival gang. That is dangerous, the police have lost moral authority. Too many incidents have in my mind made folk worry about if they will be killed if stopped by them. Too many black people have criminal records in the US for misdemeanors, and helps create a narrative that they're hardened criminals or in some folks minds deserve what they get.

It also doesn't help that the many layers of policing in the US aren't joined up and recruitment of staff in some states raises a lot of questions.

 

Completely agree about the police being seen as a rival gang, and that’s terrifying! As the media is trying to push that over here too.

 

Agreed some parts of media and groups from extremes of right and left are making it an issue in the UK. It's a real shame, there are bad apples in the normal rank and file, you get that in every occupation that's no excuse.
They've lowered the wage, entry requirement, pay peanuts...........
It's the very senior officers in certain forces that worry me. Can we honestly say the Met is clean and doesn't have any racists employed? Same with SYP, there is still a club mentality, If your face fits you get promoted etc, still covering for each other, and yes funny handshakes (usually at higher ranks) still goes on. I don't think though that our police on mass target minorities or those who are less off. I still like to think that you could walk around in a uniform anywhere in the UK and go door to door and most folk would be polite and speak with you.

Issues which arise in UK and in US are all socioeconomic and due to a weird tough on crime mantra which cuts out community engagement.

Police should be part of every village, attend schools etc that would go some way to solve trust issues but in US it's gone too far.

 

There were three police officers and one unarmed man. I don't believe that they were incapable of restraining him.
I'm not trying to make this into a race thing. What worries me is the nonchalance of the officers as they followed him around the car then unloaded a fusillade of shots into him.

 

support for who and in what context?

 

I don't understand why they still allow ownership of firearms. Surely it causes a million times more trouble than it actually prevents.

 

Not only the amount of shots, but the distance. He must've been inches away and the damage and sight must have been horrific. Are these people even trained? Its no surprise to me there is such a stand off. There can't be any trust there at all. And when you've the person in charge of their country not seeing anything wrong with these events and glorifying the far right so frequently, is it any wonder people are fearful of the police and authorities.

 

and a much harder target than centre mass which is what is taught, centre mass until no longer a threat

 

It's not relevant to this case but if anyone gets the chance on Sky Crime there's a docu called Outcry. If ever there was a reason for wholesale criminal justice reform in USA this is it. I knows there's probably thousands more like that case but this turned my stomach. The layers of incompetence, abuse of power and back covering at all levels is frightening.

 

Nothings been confirmed about him being armed. Witnesses filming say he was unarmed.

Raises an issue about those with mental health issues. If someone was manic and self harmed during periods of mania would an officer shoot them if they were trying to find a sharp implement?

The fearing for your life defence seems to be used alot.
Why don't officers retreat? Regroup? Reset the situation and attempt to de-escalate? Why is force met with excessive force. If the person is a threat to themselves not other's around them a bullet isnt what is needed.
It seems in alot of these incidents assumptions are made before actually addressing what's actually in front of them. Officers arrive pumped up ready for war, rather than reading the situation.
This incident was a domestic, how the hell does it escalate to 7 shots fired at point blank range?

 

One question though, every single one of these shootings has seen the police attempt to arrest and for instance yell at the person to get on the ground etc. On each occasion the person has refused to comply and decides they are above the law, either resisting arrest or walking away. I would have thought on each occasion these people should have been tasered and arrested, not shot and killed.

If the person had complied with the officers request he would still be alive.

So why do people now believe it is acceptable to consider themselves above the law?

How many police shootings have occurred when the person has complied with an officers request? I haven't seen any.... So where is the root of the problem that also needs to be addressed as well as how forceful police then react. They go hand in hand.

 

If a cop or cops turn up and already have an unconscious bias toward you, your friends, family and where you live its not the best start. If they then treat you like a criminal start offering violence if you don't march to their tune and tell you they're going to put cuffs on you without actually listening then they might not trust you.

If this same behaviour is repeated for decades with some folk killed and beaten and officers getting off routinely (cos they fear for their lives). Would you respect the police? Would you trust them? Would you trust that they wouldn't shoot you or give you a Rodney King style beating once you follow orders and stop and turn around?

 

Whatever has happened in the past doesn't give any person the right to resist arrest or walk away from a valid instruction from a copper.

On this occasion the guy ignored everything that was said to him and just walked off. Escalation was 100% justified from the police although I don't agree with that scale of escalation.

 

Plus you have seen a video. How do you know what unconscious bias a certain individual had? You could argue the guy who thinks he is above the law has the biggest unconscious bias..