King Keith conquers September..

Re: After the defeat at home to Middlesbrough

Facts #facts

I find it interesting that the anti-Keith brigade find it very difficult to accept that he was doing a decent (in fact very) good job before January of 2012. The simple fact is we then sold and lost key players and he could never replace them.

That doesn't mean he's a bad manager. He was just incredibly unlucky at that point and then lost his beautiful mind.

 

Re: After the defeat at home to Middlesbrough

My new favourite quote

 

Don't think I agree with that. I wouldn't say Paul Tidsdale (as an example) if less tactically adept than say Zola. Zola just has better players. If anything the manager's at the bottom have to be more tactically adept to overcome the odds stacked against them. Its easier if your Harry Redknapp and you just pick your expensively assembled high quality team and say 'go out and play'

 

Most people work one level above their abilities. They start a job, do well, get promoted. Sometimes again and again and again. They finally reach a level where they no longer do that particular role very well. They no longer get put forward for promotion and stagnate in a job that they don't really like, that they can't do very well and are no asset at all to their company. But business being what it is, they simply stay there for the rest of their working lives. Had they not had the last promotion they would be doing an excellent job for the company in a position they were entirely happy with. Or so the theory goes.

Football is much harsher than that. If you reach a level beyond your competence you're very quickly out on your ear. Unfortunately, your reputation has been tarnished, and clubs down the league pyramid who you could do a very good job for will no longer touch you. Either that or the opinion you have of yourself has been skewed by that big job and you chase similar jobs for the rest of your career, continually unhappy and doomed to failure. There's only a few who, like Keith, go back to where they came from to enjoy success and happiness once more.

I think there is a difference between managing in the Championship and the lower leagues. Identifying players who can do a job in the Championship. Keith found a few, but he found a lot more that couldn't. I think we were still suffering from that when we were playing Keith's midfield players earlier this season. They proved last season that they've got what was required in a fight, but they also showed this season that they lacked the necessary quality. Particularly when all played together.

None of that means that Keith won't be able to make the step up in the future. But he wasn't ready at the time.

Unfortunately for me, using the above model, it appears that my level of competence will only take me as far as the gutter and I'm struggling there.

 

But wasn't that indicative of the budget he had, that he had to try and identify players who could do a job in the Championship who others didn't want? If he could have signed Greer, Drinkwater, kept Vaz Te, brought in Le Fondre etc. I'm sure it would have been a different ending to my blinkered Keith loving fairtyle

 

He would have played Wiseman in that Blackburn game no matter who he had available. He would have signed Done no matter how much money he had.

Every manager at every club in the league can find some excuses. Fact of the matter is he failed at Barnsley. The whys and wherefores don't really matter. I know how he feels, I've failed a time or two myself. But he's bounced back and now he's doing well again. Good on him. Shows a lot of character that. We'll find out in future if the bottom two leagues are his level or if he learnt something from his experience at Barnsley and he can make that step up. If he can't, there's absolutely no shame in it. Being a good league 1 and 2 manager is a fantastic position to be in. I think many of us on here would give our right arm to be able to do it.

 

Well done keef. I hold no bitterness towards him. Just not that interested now he has nothing to do with us. Shall we celebrate next months L2 MoM even if it's not keef?

 

Of course managers have a level. If they didnt anyone could employ anyone would still get the same results. For example Dave Jones spent millions at Cardiff, but always failed as in the end as he is a top half Championship manager at best. Malkie Mackay took over and look what they achieved. Moyes has the same squad as Fergie did last season, however I very much doubt he will achieve the same. Rochdale were a flop in both League 1 and 2 under Coleman, but under Keith they are a much better side, regardless of the budget.

 

Pleased for him.A decent guy who tried his best.He's now at a club where he's loved and the pressure and expectations of the fans is perhaps not as great.

 

We keep hearing this. How did he have his team ripped apart?

 

Always liked king Keith me

 

I think you have a point with some managers, like some players are in a division too high or low for whatever reason.

You could look at it conversely to what you are saying. Yes, some managers do start at the top (or close to the top) but the bad ones soon drop down. Look at Simon Davey for example. Steve Bruce and McKay both started in the 2nd tier but have remained at that level and higher because they are good managers, if not they would have dropped down eventually, even Bryan Robson got found out eventually!! Holloway started at the lower end of division 2 (league one) which is higher than many but he's still worked himself up to the highest level.

My point is for the majority you will find your natural level, some have it harder than others by starting at a lower level but the best will get there. Moyes has gone from Preston to Man Utd, Mourinho and AVB worked themselves up as well. If Flitcroft succeeds at Barnsley a bigger club will come in for him, whether that's a Premier League club or a top Championship club, then he will have the money to prove himself at a higher level has just like McKay has. He earned that by doing well at Watford.

There will be examples where it doesn't work like that, I'm sure there's some League 2 managers who would do a cracking job and some top flight managers who aren't as tactically aware but on the whole I'd say the cream rises.

 

As I've just wrote in my reply to Dyson, there will be examples of lesser managers at higher levels than better managers, and vice-versa. However on the whole I would suspect there is a strong correlation between division and ability like with players. QPR are a bit of an extreme example this season as their squad is way better than the league they're in, like Newcastle a few years ago. Other Championship managers may have better players, but so do the opposition and they are better at adapting.

 

Coleman had them sitting mid table 4 points behind the play off places when sacked, maybe expectations were too high and Khiller had also become available. They finished the season 8 points off the play off places.

They have started well this season and Keith getting Hogan to return to Rochdale from Stocksbridge seems to have worked well with him netting 5 times.

Hope Rochdale do well, no matter who their manager is, for the simple fact the fans have had very little success over the years.

 

December 26th v Leicester

L Steele, J McEveley, R Edwards, S Wiseman, J McNulty, M Done, J O'Brien, D Perkins, J Butterfield, R Vaz Te, C Davies

February 25th v Coventry

L Steele, S Foster, J McEveley, R Edwards, S Wiseman, S Golbourne, J McNulty, M Tonge, S Dawson, K Smith, C Davies

Vaz Te, Butterfield, O'Brien & Perkins lost through injury or being sold. Replaced with 2 loans & Golbourne/Dawson. That doesn't include Drinkwater leaving either.

We lost our entire midfield and creativity in the space of 3 or 4 weeks. The only two players in our side that were match winners in Butterfield & Vaz Te too. I reckon a lot of managers would find it very difficult if that happened to them, regardless of level but especially with the squad and finances we had/have to replace. He made mistakes, of course he did, but I like many others felt like we were on to a good thing at the time.

In early December we were 9th in the league. Is that the highest we've been other than that early run under Davey where we went up to 4th?

 

Long live King Keith!

 

He's doing very well at his correct level......as will McNulty & Dagnall.

 

The expectations under Coleman were never set to high. We wanted a team we could be proud of again after the debacle that ensued in L1 after Hill left. Many fans were expecting nothing more than an upper mid-table position with maybe an outside chance of the playoffs.

That we were in that position when Coleman was sacked illustrates just how bad things had become - the club was losing its identity and many supporters couldn't connect with the team they saw out on the field. The best way to explain it is to list the amount of players we've produced in the last 6/7 years and then look at how many progressive players we had with potential before Hill returned - one at best and that was Bobby Grant, and he never really played the Rochdale way. In less than nine months Hill has built a side that is not only producing on the pitch, but will produce off it with transfer fees. It's the way we work.

Scott Hogan? 300-400k. Add him to the Hill money-making list: Murray, Perkins, Le Fondre, Buckley, Dawson....

Not sure what level Hill could be a success at, but L2 isn't "his level" because he's a success one division higher. He's also a different man now to the one that left. The real test will be when another bigger club comes in for him, who knows, he might be happy here for the long haul. If that does happen, I'd expect Rochdale to become a Championship club within five years. But it's a massive if.

 

In what way would you say he`s a different man?