Unbelievable...

Re: Dennis and his mates shut legoland - boo hiss.

Im not buying this line of arguement either, that somehow people would stop killing each other, if only there was no religion.
The fact is that men kill, some kill because their faiths explicitly command them to do so, some kill though their faiths explicitly forbid them to do so, and some do indeed kill because they have no faith and hence believe that all things are permitted to them. Polytheists, monotheists and atheists kill. Men kill for their gods, or for their God or because there is no God and the destiny of humanity must be shaped by gigantic exertions of human will. They kill in persuit of universal truths, for faith, blood and soil, empire, national greatness, socialist utopias, capitalism and "democratization". Men will always seek gods in whose name they may perform great deeds or commit unspeakable atrocities, even when those gods are not gods but "tribal honor" or "genetic imperatives", "social ideals", "human destiny" or "liberal democracy". Then again, they kill also for money, on account of pride, land, love, hatred, envy or ambition. they kill out of convictions or out of a lack of conviction.

The truth is that religion and irreligion are cultural variables, but killing is a human constant and as such It is not really clear to me, why, were we to purge the world entirely of faith, people would somehow choose to be guided by moral principles and prejudices which would render the world a better place.

 

Re: Dennis and his mates shut legoland - boo hiss.

I don't think that anyone's actually claiming that. The fact is, though, that some nutters do kill other people because of their religions. The religion may not be the only reason, but it's often a contributing factor at least.

 

Re: Dennis and his mates shut legoland - boo hiss.

Bit of a random post by Wakey, there.

I love a good religious debate, though. The Flicker/Keith game was wánk.

 

Re: Dennis and his mates shut legoland - boo hiss.

No ones selling you owt. Of course people kill for other reasons but historically religion has been at the root cause of lots of violence throughout the ages and lots of wars that wouldn't have happened without the pervading influence of religion. No amount of shilliying or indeed shilliying can hide that.

People can have faith in things other than blokes with beards living in the sky. Religion is about people wanting things to be a certain way without any facts to substantiate those beliefs. That's up to them. There is as much evidence about David Ickes Lizard people as there is to substantiate Christianity.

Would removing all religions end war or murder or make the world a happier fluffier place. I can't say I know. And yes you can fall back on the argument about the inherent nature of man. But to remove any casual factor us presumably a positive thing arguing otherwise seems to be like those Americans who can't see the prevalence of guns in their country contributes to violent crime. Of course remove all the guns there would still be nutjobs who want to murder people. It just makes it slightly harder.

 

Re: Dennis and his mates shut legoland - boo hiss.

In fact the real destruction of human life in Europe gathered pace once it's rulers had thrown off the shackles of religious moderation. More human beings were destroyed in the pursuit of the "brotherhood of man" than could ever have been imagined under the influence of Europe's religious leaders.

 

Re: Dennis and his mates shut legoland - boo hiss.

So I guess we agree, on balance, that a series of wars called the holy wets were probably religious wars then.

It's a viewpoint. Not necessarily the right one or the wrong one but a viewpoint.

 

Re: Dennis and his mates shut legoland - boo hiss.

Hre's an interesting academic study which has tried to measure the religious nature of all major conflicts in the last 2,000 years

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/world/04/war_audit_pdf/pdf/war_audit.pdf

from page 13 is the table summary and the conclusion:-

There have been few genuinely religious wars in the last 100 years. The Israel/Arab wars were wars of nationalism and liberation of territory.
q The Islamist fundamentalist terror war is largely about political order in the Arab countries, and the presence of US forces in Saudi Arabia. It is not about religious conversion or a clash of religions. Nevertheless, bin Laden claims a religious duty in executing the war.
q The US and allied invasion of Iraq is a war that has arguably been caused by religion: the religious conviction of one man, President George W. Bush. This is discussed later.
q Leaders use differences in confessional faith as a way of sewing hatred and mobilising support for political wars, and it is mainly in this way that religion becomes a factor in war.
q At a philosophical level, the main religious traditions have little truck with war or violence. All advocate peace as the norm and see genuine spirituality as involving a disavowal of violence. Most religious traditions regard war as a failing to achieve genuine spirituality and impose special constraints on its conduct.
q It is mainly when organised religious institutions become involved with state institutions that people begin advocating religious justifications for war.

 

Re: Dennis and his mates shut legoland - boo hiss.

They've never forgiven them for winning the Eurovision song contest