Well it is back to class war

Don't bother about the idiots on here, there are some of us prepared to have a serious debate. Personally I'm a member of the Green party because I believe the biggest threat to the world today is the wholesale destruction of the environment. Arguments about left and right come a long way behind that. Unfortunately both left and right are committed to short-term unsustainable growth with little or no regard to our kids' long-term futures.

 

There's serious discussion in this thread, as there is in many others. But there's also room for a bit of banter, winding up or humour. Don't you ever make any light hearted posts on here? I'm sure you do.

 

Totally wide of the mark, class war pre dates socialism, the biggest proponents of class war are the upper echelons of society, we can use the modern terminology of the 1%, they have been carrying out class war for centuries aided and abetted by their puppets in the conservative party and before them the tories. They are very adept at covering their intentions with lies and deception and one of those is the one you used. Unfortunately they get away with it because it's easier for people to believe simple propaganda than it is to do a bit of thinking for themselves and a bit of research to find the truth. Neo Liberalism and its accompanying brother austerity are just the latest weapons of class war. Yanis Varoufakis called it on question time, research his economic qualifications and compare them to Osbourns and any other politician of any party and make your mind up who is the more qualified to comment on class war.

 

^^^^^ This, just this ^^^^^

 

Glad we now have some debate on this. Anyone who had been in my situation with my record shop which was basically obliterated by unfair competition from amazon and piracy from the downloaders would have felt insulted by the suggestion that I am now paying £7 in tax on my current business.

I was locked into a seven year lease in the town centre. My rent and rates and electric were 80k and in one year my sales dropped by 40k, taking me from a 15k profit to a 25k loss year on year. I had my house up for sale, which eventually paid back loans from my family. I had some income from djing, but apart from that the only other help available were tax credits.
Without them I would have probably had to go bankrupt and that would have prevented me starting my new business, which after 10 years is now a big success and I'm paying into the system.

Mr Hunts comments that we should work hard like the americans and chinese are a total insult from a man who has clearly never had any money worries in his life.

 

That whole 'work harder' mantra that keeps getting trotted out is proper pissing me off. Who do they think they are to even suggest that people aren't working hard? It sums the out of touch nature of our politicians up.

 

I don't like it, but I agree that it is a class war. Just like the miners won in the three day week against Heath, Thatcher waged and won a class war against the working people of this country. These are the children of Thatcher and the war goes on, it is very sad.

I also agree with WilkoJohnson about what constitutes a mandate for these actions. I am also bemused by the election of Corbyn and the polarisation that he threatens. I grew up with my dad rarely fulfilling a full week, partly through strikes and partly through hating his job. I never could understand why they'd strike against a nationalised industry, I thought they would make it work.

I've never been more in favour of voting reform, the torys would hate it and the left would have to moderate.

 

The rich have always waged war on the poor. It's capitalism whether we like it or not. This just brings it into clearer focus.

 

That sounds awful Mr P. you have my sympathy and admiration, basically driven out of business by selfish people and capitalism. People have a misconception about socialism and small businesses and I hope that some of the announcements made by JC and JM will start to dispel that myth. For the uninformed they said that how small businesses in the main were low paid and had no recourse to protection from the welfare state and stated that they would alter that by providing sick pay, maternity pay, pensions, in fact giving them the social protection that is/ was afforded to ordinary workers. There isn't enough time or space on here to try and dispel all the myths and lies that people believe about socialism. It's like those who come on here spouting the lie ( still peddled this week at the conservative conference this week by osbourn ), that labour crashed the economy, the governor of the bank of england at the time dispelled that myth last month and that labour waste money and leave a bad economy for the other lot, again lies by the right wing, the figures are out there to prove it if you are interested but of course those who come on here repeating all that dross live in a closed echo chamber and would not believe it anyway. Gooin nah cos brain hurts nar.

 

Mr Corbyn has caused me to join the labour party. I voted green at the last election, but if people actually want a politician who is honest, decent and has the country's interests at heart they should look no further. Coming from a Saudi apologist like Cameron that Corbyn "hates britain" is ******** and playing the sort of semi racist card Farage does.

 

Bang on the button Mr P. I stopped my membership in the early Blair years, ( despite voting for him ) soon saw through him, rejoined as a full member the day JC won his nomination. Read this, copied and pasted:-
From the moment Corbyn got on to the vote papers for the Labour leadership our right wing press began to smear Corbyn and his views. Every effort was made to put the electorate off.

When Corbyn won the leadership that vitriole was increased ten fold including the Conservatives describing him as a threat to national security. Every word past and present, every action and every piece of clothing or lack of clothing was scrutinised. There is no doubt the press were out to murder Corbyn.

But here is the thing. This isn’t an attempted murder. He is being crucified. Like a modern day Messiah Corbyn has dared to shake up politics with his message of change and a message of a different kind of politics. It’s revolutionary and ground breaking, at least to most people, the level of support and his supporters themselves have experienced a second coming of sorts and the right wing press and the elite are now conducting a silent crucifixion. They are behaving like a modern day Judas. This is evidenced not by what has been put in the press about Corbyn in recent weeks but by what isn’t in the press now and it’s this that Labour supporters should be careful of.
You may have noticed suddenly that most of the rhetoric has stopped. You may have noticed that the tories are suffering their own backlash. So much so that people are noticing and commenting on it.
This isn’t a turnaround. This isn’t some awakening by the press. It’s designed like this.

Let’s be clear, the Tories as much as they won’t admit it do fear the Corbyn movement. It’s as if no matter what they do, people don’t buy it. They are still flocking in their tens of thousands to hear the man speak on top of the hill.

How do you stop a movement like that. When you can speak all you like about the virtues of your own policy but no one is listening to you.

I believe they have realised that bashing the Corbyn supporters is having a negative effect. I believe they have changed tack and the press are listening.

It’s recently been revealed that MI5 have spent a long time watching Corbyn. Cameron has described Corbyn as a national security threat, an army general threatened treason and the press have had a sudden turn around in how they are reporting. Cameron would sell his soul to the devil for national security information.. Like he has admitted he did with Saudi Arabia.

From the demonisation of workers Under 25 not being productive enough to the tax credits cuts hitting 3 million people, to Cameron openly admitting he did a deal with the Saudi’s and a raft of other revelations recently about the Tories. You couldn’t have dreamt of this turn around in reporting.

It stinks. It stinks to high heaven. Something is happening and I believe it’s an orchestrated effort by some forces within power that have realised they need to be clever with how they deal with the Corbyn surge because they know blatant attacks on Corbyn are having a negative effect (for them).

Whatever you do between now and 2020 don’t believe anything other than Corbyn is going to win in 2020. Don’t listen to the bad press. Don’t believe the press will ever warm to Corbyn. The people running the media are still the same. This is a concerted effort to discredit in more ways than one everything that Corbyn stands for.

The bad press you see about the Tories is designed to make them look falable. Their policies will still work out well for their supporters, they will continue on and the press will make it look like ‘the country had doubts, but look what they achieved’ this is what they hope will keep the public on side.

With their war on immigration they hope in the meantime to attract a good amount of the millions of UKIP votes.

The Tories are playing clever. They are now being measured in their approach. This is the beginning of a genuine modern day crucifixion but it won’t be bloody. It will be underhand and dishonest and the press are in on it. Corbyn is a threat to the establishment but we must be ready to face them down and ready to question everything we read in the press, good and bad.

 

That's true of any government though, no party has got over 50% of the vote since the 1930s, Labour won with 35.2% in 2005 were you saying then that they didn't have a mandate?

 

You're on top form today, old mate. I totally agree with everything you've posted.

 

Went to my local Labour meeting last Thursday...I'd say the attendance had doubled from last month, the vast majority of these were under 30, most of which had never voted...Times are a changing, my friend.

 

I'm backing 5c right little set of barstwards them!

 

In a word

Yes

Regardless of anyone's political persuasion, there should be a strict form of PR for a general election. If this leads to Coalition governments then so be it - even if this means a Tory/UKIP coalition.

Oh and whilst I'm on my high horse, politics ought to be mandatory in schools at secondary school level - it is way past time that RE was diched.

 

I really hope this galvanising of the young voters does not fizzle out though......long time to wait until the next election.

 

Welcome back to the party mate.

Everything you have said is true but the media will be relentless and I'm not sure the middle classes have the sense to see through it but I hope I'm wrong.

The media,politicians and all the establishment have too much to lose to let anything like an honest govt prevail its their very existence and lies they have told for years and years that is at stake.

Although if a truly committed opposition to HM Government can be established it can only benefit the country IMO.
But they will stop at nothing and the biggest threat is from within our own ranks which are infiltrated with political journeymen\women who are benefiting from the status quo of present day politics.

 

Apathy in this country reached record levels at the last election. Millibland & Labour were merely Tory "lite". The Tories didn't seem quite so evil to many, as the Lib Dem's had reigned in what they could do, so only now the true horrors are being revealed. Let me say Cameron said he wasn't gonna touch tax credits. He is a liar.

The SNP managed to overcome the apathy in Scotland by actually listening to people.
I spent a few weeks north of the border recently & I have DJs up there & what everyone says is they have won votes because they listen.
They don't seem to be part of the westminster elite. Obviously there is the independence debate, but given they lost the referendum, such a massive win couldn't have been predicted by anyone.

As the Parliamentary party Labour is going to be well out of line with its membership now this will be the biggest short term problem for us wanting change. After the last election there aren't that many MPs though & I could see a fair few Blairites standing down before the next election, unless they choose to defect to the Tories, which I wouldn't rule out.
The Labour Party really needs to get back in touch with its principles. Whatever anyone says about Corbyn he is a man of principle.
I don't see that in anyone on the Tory front bench (& to be honest not too many on Labour's either). I do think though this is where ordinary people becoming members comes in. Fighting the right wing press on the free social media channels is so easy now. If people actually get mobilised we don't have to take this austerity ****.

I agree totally with T'Owd Man that Corbyn is almost a semi Jesus like figure of someone who has opposed the elite & could well overturn the applecart. He's only one bloke & can only be a catalyst, which is entirely what he has said over & over again. It won't happen though if people don't get behind him. I've loads of mates in the Green Party & at the moment their principles are closer to mine than the current Labour manifesto, hence me voting Green last time. As I made clear in my initial post though we currently exist in a totally undemocratic first past the post system. (Marlon agree with you entirely & will be campaigning for PR, as I have done all my life. Sadly Clegg jumped into bed with the wrong man.) The only real opposition is gonna be Labour for the forceable & with a man like Corbyn at the helm & a democratic policy review i really think there is a victory in 2020 to be grabbed.

This time we won't put in someone who is gonna sell us down the river though like Tony Blair did.
I remember travelling up from a gig in Camden the night of his election, hearing the results come in. The end of the worst government this country has had in modern times. The problem was the Blair approach was sucking up to the press & certain business moguls, like Lord Janner compromised him from day one. This time it must be different.

 

The voters that Labour has to woo (in no particular order)

1. The young who have probably never voted
2. Those who are disenchanted by politicians in general
3. Traditional Labour voters who have gone to UKIP