Best Barnsley homegrown XI

You say you can't judge a player by statistics and history and then you quote statistics and history to say Winstanley was the better player.

If he had been better than Howard then why did he play 5 or 6 seasons in the 3rd and 4th divisions for us and Chesterfield while Howard played in the old 1st division for Newcastle and Arsenal?

 

Because if he hadn't have got injured at Luton when Bill Nicholson was in the stands watching in about 1962, in his last game before signing for Tottenham (Man United, Liverpool, Spurs, Arsenal, Everton were all after him) he wouldn't have been at Barnsley. He was the first ever player to play professional football after that cruciate ligament injury, in those days it was game over.

Even after the injury he came back and played for another 10 years or so as Captain after about 2 years out. Even after the injury Sheffield United offered a British transfer record of £65k for him, which was turned down. The Chesterfield move came when he was about 30 and he wasn't even training in between games.

Again, I'm not arguing the who was better, I don't know, I've spent many days in both of their company, and both have equal admiration for each other. My point is, you can't compare based on who went where, lots of reasons why not, from a terrible injury at the wrong time at 19 years old, to Barnsley never accepting a bid. Just pointing out that the fact that my old man went to Chesterfield isn't the true measure of his ability. Having said that Chesterfield were in a higher Division in the old 2nd Division at the time.

 

Not sure, maybe BFC Dave can look through the Financial records to see if it ever showed up. I remember there being a big issue about it at the time though.

 

Having watched both many times, my favourite was Pat Howard (a fellow Dodworther who, for a short time, lived just round the corner from me in Gilroyd). However Eric was an outstanding centre half, who also scored more than his fair share of goals. He was also a more than capable centre forward. It's worth remembering as well, in those days clubs had a greater control over the players. If the club decided a player wouldn't leave, he didn't leave. That may well have played a part in Eric staying for as long as he did. Pat moved on and did well at the highest level with Newcastle, Arsenal & Birmingham I have no doubt that had Eric been presented with the same opportunity, he would have done equally as well.
It does baffle me why such an outstanding club servant as Eric Winstanley is derided. I, for one, am grateful & appreciative for his superb service to Barnsley Football Club.

 

Correction TN. Chesterfield were in the 3rd Division. I was fortunate enough to see his debut for the Reds inpatient Griffin Park, and, what a debut.

 

Didn't they get promoted that year though? Maybe my memory has gone but I'm sure he played in Div 2 for Chesterfield

 

Duncan Sharp got injured and then retired. I think they pulled my Dad back from England youth duties on the afternoon to play.

 

The only statistic I quoted was his goal scoring! I saw both play week in week out! No history books quoted just my eyes! As has been already pointed out he was on the brink of record transfer to Spurs when he was injured. There was also a different loyalty by some players then.

 

I consider myself to be very fortunate as a Barnsley fan having at seen our two best teams of all time in the Hunter and Wilson years my only real regret is not seeing Eric play for us. My grandad a man not prone to emotion used to well up whenever Eric's name was Mentioned he reckoned he would have been our greatest ever player if it wasn't' for his injury and he'd seen both Tommy Taylor and Danny Blanchflower in his time.

 

No one is deriding him. I just pointed out that Howard played for 7 or 8 years in Division 1. Winstanley played (and scored I think) in the first game I saw us play, at home to Brentford in 68. I got his autograph when I was about 8 and he was about 4 feet taller than me. He probably still is.

Terrry Nutkins talks of an injury I didn't know about. Maybe that explains why Howard played at a higher level. But playing at a higher level for so long would indicate that clubs at the time considered him the better player.

 

Oh aye, that's a point. He was very good though.

 

Players didn't always get the transfer to bigger clubs their abilities deserved. Football clubs had far greater control over their players' careers during that period of time. Pat, thankfully, got his opportunity. Eric, unfortunately, didn't. The fact that he ended up seeing out his career at Chesterfield does not mean he was incapable of playing at a higher level. There's no doubt in my mind that Eric could have comfortably played at a higher level had he been allowed to move on by the club. The comment that he only moved on to Chesterfield comes across as somewhat derogatory to him & his abilities in my opinion and (after reading Terry Nutkins' reply) that appears to be the reaction of his family, too.

 

So who would you rather have in your team Seattle_red, Hourihane or Frimpong?

 

Frimpong played less than 20 games in the top flight for Arsenal, Wolves and Fulham over a few seasons. Pat Howard played over 200 top tier games over 6 years or more. You're not comparing like with like. You're also insulting Howard with that comparison.

 

I accept that players didn't always get a big club move but generally players did move on. We sold our only ever England cap in about 1913 and from then till Howard there was Robledo, Taylor, Blanchflower, etc. I was comparing Chesterfield on the one hand to Newcastle and Arsenal on the other. That's not derogatory. You can't help but realise there's a big gulf there.

 

i dont think you are being fair in your comparison either, Howard got a move and did very well, its been stated above by family that Eric was on the verge of 2 moves, one denied by injury and one by BFC. Who knows how good how Eric would have been , im not old enough to have see him play but from all ive read and heard im willing to bet he would have been just as successful in the the higher leages as Pat.

 

And I'm simply pointing out that there were other mitigating circumstances behind it. Clubs much higher in the footballing pyramid tried to sign Eric. Unfortunately, a number of issues played a part in stopping him from moving on. Claiming Eric signing for Chesterfield towards the end of his career & Pat (who was my first Barnsley idol) going to Newcastle was indicative of their varying levels of ability is inaccurate, unfair and derogatory, in my opinion.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

What we're debating is who was the better player. If Winstanley hadn't had his injury and had got a big move he could have done as well as Howard did. But unfortunately he didn't. Everything else is speculation. A few people are saying Winstanley could have been as good. I'm just saying Howard was better because he got the chance to be.

I actually did see both play, Winstanley more often because he played more games for us, but it was all a long time ago.

I'm off to work in a minute so you'll have to carry on without me.

 

Fair enough, mate.

 

I did not make any comparison at all between Howard and Frimpong! The comparison was between Frimpong and Hourihane! Frimpong made over 60 appearances at a higher level than Hourihane, played in Champions League and had full international caps, using your logic he has to be a better player than Hourihane.