EU referendum. Can someone from the YES camp please give me...

That's pretty much the way I feel - that I don't actually have enough knowledge to understand entirely what I may or may not be voting for.

 

You have to look at the real agenda of the ultra right so Nige and Boris and Ids wrap their agenda inside the cloak of nationalism. The problem with the successes of trade unions is that those successes can no longer be guarded by those unions who are too weak to fight the erosion of rights.

 

I would have thought you would want us to stay in the EU as much as any one. If we do vote to leave all the benefits we currently enjoy will have to be renegotiated. It may be that British people will no longer be allowed to up sticks and move to countries in the European Union. It's possible that those already living there will be asked to leave.

 

This might be a good reason to leave

Get rid of the opposition in one fell swoop

British football could be radically changed if the UK votes to leave the European Union, according to experts and leading voices in the game.

Some fear so-called Brexit could lead to more than 400 players losing the right to play in the UK, while others say it may give home talent a chance.

The UK will decide if it wants to stay in the EU in a referendum on 23 June.

"Leaving the EU will have a much bigger effect on football than people think," said football agent Rachel Anderson.

"We're talking about half of the Premier League needing work permits.

"The short-term impact would be huge but you could argue it will help in the long term as it could force clubs to concentrate on home-grown talent."
More than 100 Premier League players would be affected with Aston Villa, Newcastle United and Watford facing losing 11 players from their squads, while Championship side Charlton Athletic would need to find 13 replacements.

In fact, only 23 of the 180 non-British EU players currently playing in the Championship would get work permits - and most of those are former internationals from Ireland or Commonwealth nations with British passports.

THIS WEEK LEAGUE ONE, 2 YEARS DER PREMIERSHIP !!!

 

Turkey voting for Christmas!! ?? Seriously no idea where you get that from. No-one will be 'asked to leave' - utter Tosh!!! and you have just reinforced the point of the OP. You have stated an opinion with NO basis of any credible evidence and therefore the 'Fear' factor. What actually makes you think 'people will be asked to leave?? One example -The Double taxation treaty for example has nothing whatsoever to do with EU membership as they are separate treaties between individual countries both within the EU and non-member countries. We pay taxes and bring money into the country and benefit the local economies. Why would they want to change that?


Not sre

 

Yawn!!... glad you take such an interest in my life choices!! What has living in Italy got to do with anything.

I am voting, as is my wife, because we have a daughter and son-in-law who live in England we care very much about and probably grandchildren. Therefore, however much any decision affects us living abroad I am more concerned about their wellbeing and future.

 

Confused by some of the answers from our left(ish) posters!!...

One reason for staying in from them seems to be that leaving the EU would allow Cameron and the Conservatives to run riot and destroy workers rights, the NHS and many freedoms etc. we currently enjoy.

What I do not understand regarding that argument is ..

1 The current EU membership does not seem to be exactly inhibiting those aims.
2 Many examples quoted of 'benefits' of EU membership, as pointed out by other posters, do not actually result from EU membership, rather they come from UK long standing policies, membership of organisations like the UN NATO etc. Peace in Europe, oft quoted is not directly aligned to EU membership and if you look at the EU record on employment hardly points to massive job losses if we come out.

3 If, as our lefty posters state, Cameron and his Government would be able to do as they please, why oh why are they campaigning strongly for us to stay in?

4 The Establishment, big business, Government and most importantly the bankers, are all those who are frantically trying to get the rest of us to go along with 'IN' is best. They want to maintain the status quo.

The latest fear factor today is ' Football MAY (note the lack of fact) may be adversely affected if we leave the EU. Another attempt to influence the working man without any real evidence to state categorically it WILL affect us.

Overall the IN voters are bombarding us with MIGHT, MAY, COULD... RATHER THAN WILL DO or DOES NOW. The argument is all based on assumptions and guesses. WHERE ARE THE REAL FACTS? Whitey has posted "People abroad MAY be asked to leave!! Huh!! Where does that come from?? total Fear factor with absolutely NOTHING to back it up

In fairness, the OUT voters are in the same position because no one really knows although the net daily cost of EU membership is to me a definite quantifiable fact (one of the few we know about). What I do know is history shows that Conservative Governments have always wanted to preserve the status quo.

In spite of the adverse impact it MAY have on my personal situation (expat retired and living in the EU) I am inclined towards voting OUT for reasons given above.

 

Re: Confused by some of the answers from our left(ish) posters!!...

Did someone once tell you that randomly capitalising words adds emphasis? It just makes you look like a confused grandad at a rave.

It would be fairest in my opinion for you to abstain given your absence from the UK. Whilst I understand the argument about it impacting family members they can presumably vote for themselves. Though to be fair I would an all expats from voting in elections for the duration of their absence.

I'm no great friend of the European project. You asked people for concrete example. The Institute for Fiscal Studies calculates that after our contributions to the EU are deducted membership is worth £1000+ per family in the UK. As you are no doubt aware the IFS is non partisan and takes no political positions. You can draw the research material from their website if you choose.

I know from personal experience that many on the centre right would repeal the EU Working Time Directive if they could. They confirm this both privately and in position papers on the subject. See Demos report from 2014.

 

The economic case probably comes down on the side of staying in, at the very least because uncertainty is always bad for the economy.

That said, if we only ever did things for economic reasons we wouldn't pay out disability benefits and the like.

 

I think we've debunked much of Dr. Sweeney's letter previously.Just had time to analyse it more...it actually is a very poor document, full of generalisations..some truths... untruths or half truths, even with my limited knowledge I doubt York's finest wouldn't like to argue the toss...I'm still undecided, despite how this may read, but we need genuine facts with no smoke and mirrors from both sides..but certainly not this, it's mainly bull**t.....just some observations.

clean beaches and rivers; cleaner air;......Britain introduced the Clean air act in 1956, plus the first steps to cleaning rivers around the same time.

lead free petrol; ...nothing to do with the EU....the whole world uses it.

restrictions on landfill dumping;..no idea

a recycling culture; ..really started in 60's America..again pretty worlwide

cheaper mobile charges;...no idea

cheaper air travel;....possibly true..but perhaps commercial considerations may play a part

improved consumer protection and food labelling;....worldwide in developed nations

a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;...true, but not limited to EU

better product safety; ...true...but again worldwide

single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;..I fail to see that point at all..no different to any other competitive market

break up of monopolies;...true it has good has legislation, nothing that any sovereign parliament could not enforce if it had the will.

Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;...worldwide patents existed long before the EU

no paperwork or customs for exports throughout...partially true... there is still paperwork though.

the single market; price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone; ..well obviously, the same value is printed on the notes.

freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;..true

funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad;.....how many and how widespread?

access to European health services; ..sometimes difficult without going the old route of insurance

labour protection and enhanced social welfare;..true to a point, ask the Greeks what they think now.

smoke-free workplaces;...Untrue...Came from the UN health people...worldwide..introduced elsewhere before the EU

equal pay legislation;...untrue...Britain had equal pay legislation in 1969

holiday entitlement; ...not sure what that point is..we have had holiday entitlements long before the EU

the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;..most people got O/T long before the EU

strongest wildlife protection in the world; can't comment

improved animal welfare in food production;..debatable...Belgian veal farms and the foie gras practise could suggest otherwise.

EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;...the EU would fund their own research, not particularly a gift to us.

EU representation in international forums;...as above
bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;....as above
EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;....as above

European arrest warrant; ...a real damp squib...speeds the old process up, UK issued 220...only 80 served

cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling;...always existed, cant see any reason not to be continued
counter terrorism intelligence; ...as above
European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa; ....as above

support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;...few countries have a better record than the UK.

investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital...true to a point..then ask the Greeks

All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been
the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed.....absolute bull....been through that earlier...somewhere between 20 and 40 million people died in WW2 resulting in the total destruction of Germany, and the complete removal of the threat.

It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships,
now EU members, since 1980. ...that is true, and I believe the EU should get full credit for that. Joining the club has been a moderator for some of the smaller nations where flashpoints could occur.

Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these....we'll have to see, perhaps they could get the EU accounts signed off as correct and true at the same time.
We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure
of £695bn is good value....can't comment, other than to say £7bn is the lowest figure I've read anywhere on a quick search

We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multipolar global future....gobbldygook..no more to say


Complete thread link below
http://bbs.barnsleyfc.org.uk/showth...emic-from-York-university&highlight=Sadbrewer

 

I said it's possible. You don't know any more than I do. It's possible.

 

Re: Confused by some of the answers from our left(ish) posters!!...

Sadly, you seem to take personally any post that disgrees with your views and resort to innuendo and personal insults

I was not "randomising" but legitimately using upper case to , as you say, emphasise certain words/meaning to highlight and get the point across. I do not need lessons in grammar and writing from you thank you very much.

Also, since UK citizens living abroad can be directly impacted by UK government decisions, and cannot take part in voting in their country of residence unless they can obtain citizenship of said country, you are saying they should have absolutely no access to any democratic priocesses. For someone who bangs on about 'rights' you are saying 100s of 0000s of people should have no voting rights or ninput into any dempcratic process and believe that that is fair?

Incidentally The IFS may claim independence but since it was founded by four financial professionals – a banker and later Conservative Party politician (Will Hopper), an investment trust manager (Bob Buist), a stockbroker (Nils Taube) and a tax consultant (John Chown) in response to the passing of the 1965 Finance Act and receives millions of pounds of funding from the state and Whitehall (tax money) its leanings are towards the Establishment status quo. It even described the benefits and tax reforms as 'progressive' so hardly impartial then! So we will agree to disagree.

Let's not fall out over this though. As I said, I am still uncertain of which way to go on the EU as it is a huge grey area and not the stark black and white people with vested interests would have us believe.

 

I'm for the camps to come out

 

Seems to me that it should be about democracy, not nationalism.

"My view of the EU has always been not that I am hostile to foreigners but I am in favour of democracy. I think they are building an empire and want us to be part of that empire, and I don't want that."

"When I saw how the European Union was developing, it was very obvious what they had in mind was not democratic. In Britain, you vote for a government so the government has to listen to you, and if you don't like it you can change it."

The above are quotes from Tony Benn. Not your average ultra right kind of guy. And these are views that until recently Corbyn espoused.

In or out is not a left / right divide.

And I'd rather have our own representatives vote in parliament for what laws we get. Rather than a collection of Europeans about whose processes I know nothing.

 

I agree that I don't know any more than you do but that was the whole point.

I don't claim there won't be any repercussions for people abroad but history and economics suggests that countries will not be in a rush to expel all foreigners in the same way the UK would not be likely to expel legitimate tax paying settled migrants from the UK. The utter tosh reference by the way was the 'asked to leave bit' . IF and it is a big if, a country decided to expel foreigners it would be unlikely to be voluntary would it? As I said, it would not be in the interest of most countries to expel foreigners and in any case, it would take years to enforce since residential status in a country still belonging to the EU would mean their rights would still be enshrined under EU law and the ECHR so it is unlikely that they could even if they wanted.

Both campaigns are being run on the basis of wild guesses/assertions without anything real hard evidence to back them up. Do you not think that, possibly, you, like many others, are selecting the opinions and factless statements from those with vested interests that fit your own personal views/position?

 

There is always one - in'tent' on making campjokes

Perhas w could 'canvas' a few more opinions

 

So let me get this straight:

You're voting "out" despite having enjoyed the benefits of being a member of the EU (i.e. free movement etc), and potentially relying on EU laws to protect your position in Italy if the "out" vote does succeed?

Talk about having your pannetone and eating it.

 

People have 'free movement' to migrate to countries ouside the EU. I do not understand what your point is. We had to prove that we could support ourselves, we pay taxes over here, the Dual taxation treaty is nothiong to do with EU membership. We are NOT relying on EU protection of rights. It is just they currently exist if UK leaves. Italy will NOT rush to expel tax paying expats who bring quite a lot of revenue into the country as we pay a lot of tax into the coffers. FYI tax rates are far higher here and allowances much lower.

So, again, tell me exactly what benefits am I relying on? You dont have a clue really do you? You appear to resent my life choices and I have no idea why?