For the younger board members... Tony Benn was ... ' in my opinion ' the most decent friend in parliament the working classes have had in my lifetime . Tony Benn on democracy and the EU – 20th November 1991 As the debate over a federal Europe intensified towards the end of 1991, with the signing of the Maastricht Treaty imminent, Tony Benn, Labour MP for Chesterfield made this speech to the House of Commons. “Some people genuinely believe that we shall never get social justice from the British Government, but we shall get it from Jacques Delors; They believe that a good king is better than a bad Parliament. I have never taken that view. Others believe that the change is inevitable, and that the common currency will protect us from inflation and will provide a wage policy. They believe that it will control speculation and that Britain cannot survive alone. None of those arguments persuade me because the argument has never been about sovereignty. I do not know what a sovereign is, apart from the one that used to be in gold and the Pope who is sovereign in the Vatican. We are talking about democracy. No nation – not even the great United States which could, for all I know, be destroyed by a nuclear weapon from a third-world country – has the power to impose its will on other countries. We are discussing whether the British people are to be allowed to elect those who make the laws under which they are governed. The argument is nothing to do with whether we should get more maternity leave from Madame Papandreou [a European Commissioner] than from Madame Thatcher. That is not the issue. I recognize that when the members of the three Front Benches agree, I am in a minority. My next job therefore is to explain to the people of Chesterfield what we have decided. I will say first, ‘My dear constituents, in future you will be governed by people whom you do not elect and cannot remove. I am sorry about it. They may give you better creches and shorter working hours but you cannot remove them.’ I know that it sounds negative but I have always thought it as positive to say that the important thing about democracy is that we can remove without bloodshed the people who govern us. British Influence - Choosing a Good King over a Bad Parliament British Influence – Choosing a good king over a bad parliament We can get rid of a Callaghan, a Wilson or even a Right Hon. Lady by internal processes. We can get rid of a Right Hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr Major). But that cannot be done in the structure that is proposed. Even if one likes the policies of the people in Europe one cannot get rid of them. Secondly, we say to my favourite friends, the Chartists and suffragettes, ‘All your struggles to get control of the ballot box were a waste of time. We shall be run in future by a few white persons, as in 1832.’ The instrument, I might add, is the Royal Prerogative of treaty making. For the first time since 1649 the Crown makes the laws – advised, I admit, by the Prime Minister. We must ask what will happen when people realize what we have done. We have had a marvellous debate about Europe, but none of us has discussed our relationship with the people who sent us here. Hon. Members have expressed views on Albania and the Baltic states. I have been dazzled by the knowledge of the continent of which we are all part. NO one has spoken about how he or she got here and what we were sent here to do. If people lose the power to sack their Government one of several things happens. First, people may just slope off. Apathy could destroy democracy. When the turnout drops below 50 per cent, we are in danger… The second thing that people can do is to riot. Riot is an old-fashioned method for drawing the attention of the Government to what is wrong. It is difficult for an elected person to admit it, but the riot at Strangeways produced some prison reforms. Riot has historically played a much larger part in British politics than we are ever allowed to know. Thirdly, nationalism can arise. Instead of blaming the Treaty of Rome, people say, ‘It is those Germans’ or ‘It is the French’. Nationalism is built out of frustration that people feel when they cannot get their way through the ballot box. With nationalism comes repression. I hope that it is not pessimistic – in my view it is not – to say that democracy hangs by a thread in every country of the world. Unless we can offer people a peaceful route to the resolution of injustices through the ballot box they will not listen to a House that has blocked off that route. There are many alternatives open to us. One Hon. Member said that he was young and had not fought in the war. He looked at a new Europe. But there have been five Europes this century.
An excellent letter. I'm still undecided One personal experience perhaps shows the impact of Brexit and indeed who is really in charge.... reserved some currency on Sunday. Went to pick it up and the cost had risen £3 overnight. This is the real world impact as money speculators start to panic...
Tony Benn was a fine speaker, but I'm not sure he achieved much in practical terms. His son is both a fine speaker and a pragmatist. I'm conscious that voting leave would align me with the wishes of Trump, Putin and Farrage, and that's before you get to Johnson and Gove. It's instructive that for all Greece has suffered of late, former finance minister Yanis Varoufakis believes 'remain' is right for Britain - with a view to working for EU reform.
If we weren't already a member and the referendum was to join, would we join? I know I wouldn't. Somebody recently said, the only thing to fear is fear itself. I think they were right.
You cant know - if we were in our current trading position you are right we wouldnt want to join - but had we not been part of the EU we might be desperate to boost trade and want to join, I was too young in 1973 to understand but wasnt one of the reasons to join then to become part of the single market. Why are so many other countries outside the EU so keen to join? ps it was Franklin D Roosevelt that said "the only thing to fear is fear itself" in 1932 but that depends on the reason for the fear - there are times when fear is a very good thing to take into account
The EU protecting workers... http://civitas.org.uk/2016/06/06/th...nd-the-ten-trade-union-leaders-are-misguided/ Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
At the end of the day the EU is like a club. It costs £35 to be in it and then we get a £10 discount. And then we’re given £8 to spend on food. This membership then gives us lots of privileges, and because there’s lots of us in the club we get better discounts for our buying power. But to be in that club there are certain rules to abide by and follow. We get a say in writing those rules as a full club members. If we decide to leave the club we can. So we save the £35 fee. But then you have to take in to account the discount. So we actually save £25. Then we don’t get the £8 to spend on food either. So we save £17. Quids in. But then suddenly we don’t get the advantages. But that’s fine, we can still gain access to the club without being a full member, meaning we can ignore some of the rules we don’t like. Awesome. Sign us up. So lets go for the bronze package. £17.50. Half the price! All those benefits. Oh, hang on, we don’t get all the benefits? Fair enough. None of those pesky rules to abide by though...oh. I see. So what do I get for the silver package? More benefits! Great! But it’s £25? And you’re saying there are more rules....Hmmm. Well what if I don’t like the rules and want to change them? You can only do that if you’re a full member? That’s a bit rubbish. But then again I’m still only paying £15 once you factor in the £10 discount, nice one. What do you meant the discount is for full members only?! So I’m paying £25, the same as I was before!!! Not exactly?? There’s more? Well why don’t I get the £8 to spend on food? Because that’s only for full members!? Congratulations, we are Norway. Without the oil.
What a load of ballax But congratulations we are the Uk with oil, gas , farming , fishing grounds , heavy industry , yadda yadda and guess what we save the whole amount to be spent on what we want, and if our government doesn't toe the line they get ****ed off Yeeeeh HTH
You're right, we could pay nothing and keep the whole amount to spend on what we (or more precisely the government) want, but then we won't be able to access any of the benefits of the EU either. To do that we will have to pay in and accept some of the regulations. The amount of benefits we want would be completely related to how much we pay in and how much regulation we accept. As is the case for other non-EU European countries. But if you don't want any of the benefits of the EU you should absolutely vote out. No issue with that. I'm just pointing out that we shouldn't believe anyone (Farage et al) who implies that we can exit the EU and still enjoy the benefits without giving anything in return.
Why would we need to give them anything. What benefits do they give us that a government we the people vote in or out cant implement . They need us more than we need them . We can make our own laws/ benefits a lot easier than that shower. Hth
Points shared on Facebook. Not mine so don't shoot the messenger. I will assume any abuse shown to it is not personal to me. .......... Let's stop second guessing on what might happen if we leave the Eu or stay . But let's have a look at what this amazing position in the EU you are talking about has already done for our economy ?? People need stop looking in the future for the answer but in the past. Here are a few things the EU did to our economy; you can decide if they were good or bad but I know where my vote is going! Please SHARE! Jaguar Land Rover stops making its Defender in the UK because of EU laws on fuel emissions. It is now set to be built abroad outside the EU. In 2007 the Peugeot factory in Ryton, Coventry closed down (2,300 job losses) and moved to Slovakia with the help of £78m EU funding. Britain's remaining ferry service to Scandinavia (DFDS Harwich to Esbjerg) ended in 2014 after 140 years service because of an EU Directive. '3000 police cars foreign made'. Police say they are powerless to offer contracts to British car factories because of EU procurement rules. Before the UK entered the EEC/EU, unemployment stood at 2.6%. It is now 5.6% (1.85 million - May, 2015). Norway, Iceland and Switzerland are thriving because they are not encumbered by Euro bailout costs and extortionate EU membership fees. There were 25 EU Free Trade Agreements in force in 2012 while the Swiss (non-EU) had independently negotiated 26. The EU's Landfill Directive has been responsible for some councils ending their weekly bin collections. EU specified light bulbs cost 500% more than filament bulbs. Some people complain that the EU specified light bulbs produce a lesser quality of light and cfl's contain mercury, a poisonous neurotoxin and phosphors. Health issues affecting those that suffer from light sensitivity. It's been suggested that VAT on domestic fuels should be cut from 5% to zero. But 5% is the minimum allowed under EU law. Less than 10% of Britain's GDP represents trade with the EU yet Brussels regulations afflict 100% of the UK economy. Britain will pay £100 million a year more to the European budget over the next five years. (Telegraph: 03/12/2014) Article 42 3. gives the EU the power to begin the process of standardising the military forces of the member states via the EDA. Britain receives just 49p of every £1 paid to the European Union. (Sunday Express & Business for Britain, 12/07/2015) TTIP will undermine data privacy by making it easier for companies to gain access to individuals’ personal details for commercial purposes. EU Commission will block public access to all documents related to TTIP negotiations for 30 years. (EU/US negotiator Ignacio Garcia Bercero) TTIP will downgrade food safety rules (including restrictions on GMOs), regulations on the use of toxic chemicals and data protection laws. TTIP will allow corporations to sue the UK under the Investor-State Dispute Settlement (ISDS) clause. European crime gangs are operating here with impunity due to EU open borders. Gov't estimates there are 13k trafficking victims in the UK. The UK may withdraw from the obligations of any (EU) treaty under Articles 56,65,66,67 of the 1969 Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties. The EU isn't in the top five issues people are most concerned about. But those five issues are affected by the EU - like immigration. HoC library's 13% UK laws made in Brussels figure doesn't include EU reg's which are transposed into law without passing through parliament. The House of Commons library say 13.3% of UK laws now come from Brussels. European Commissioner Viviane Reding says it's 70%. Our future does not depend on our membership of the European Union, it rests on our abilities to progress in the world outside of it. Net EU contributions together with the adverse impact on business here of EU regulations will cost the UK more than £20billion in 2015. There's no economic benefit in the UK remaining in the EU. EU regulations cost our businesses alone over £9.4bn, according to the BIS. There was NO 'free movement' for Brits to the EU (EEC) before we joined in '73. Yet we lived, studied, worked, holidayed and retired there. The EU is NOT "Europe". It's 56% of Europe's countries, 68% of the continent's population and just 43% of its land mass. UK membership of EU: "Perhaps surprisingly, it's virtually impossible to find hard proof of any net benefit" — Carsten Volkery, Der Spiegel UK has LOWER GDP ppp per head than: Australia Canada HK Iceland Norway Singapore Switzerland Taiwan USA Countries THRIVE outside the EU! Britain’s future outside is bright, while the #EU is anti-democratic, anti-growth, and holding Britain back | via E21 http://t.co/fuFrsSuDHs EU commits €267.6m for Denmark, €129.6m Estonia, €284.6m Germany, €172.9m for Sweden to boost fisheries & aquaculture. Nothing for the UK. Top importers into the EU, by proportion of total EU imports: 18% China 12% USA 11% Russia None have Free Trade Agreements with the EU! 'Britain had regular manufacturing & service trade surpluses with the rest of W Europe before joining the EEC (EU) in 1973' — Lewis Abbott Well over a third of EU citizens reaching the UK in the year to March 2015 (39%) had no job arranged prior to their arrival here. ONS In the past four quarters the EU exported £84.935bn more goods to the UK than we did to it. The EU cannot afford to stop trading with us! The 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 7th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th biggest economies can survive and prosper outside the EU. So can the 5th: the UK. Switzerland, Canada, South Africa, Chile, Mexico and South Korea have free trade agreements with the EU. So would the UK when we leave it. UK Net Contributions to the EU budget: £11.3bn 2015 (OBR estimate) £11.0bn 2014 £ 8.6bn 2013 £ 8.5bn 2012 £ 8.1bn 2011 £ 7.4bn 2010 Elected MEPs cannot initiate legislation, propose legislation or even repeal legislation. All that is done by the unelected EU Commission.
That was exactly the dilemma I had in 1975...we had on the left wing side The Communist Party and certain Labour ministers..notably Tony Benn , linking up with the National Front ( forerunners of BNP & EDL ) supported by Enoch Powell and Ian Paisley , it seemed such an unholy alliance that the right way...bearing in mind the misinformation was the same then as it is now...was to trust the centre party view.....mainly because the mainstream were less likely to lie to us . I also found it difficult to accept putting my cross in the same space as a NF racist. As for Yanis Varoufakis...he comes across as a thoroughly decent man and I believe that is his genuine opinion , it has to be borne in mind though he is the leader of the Democracy in Europe Group , British eurosceptics in The EU could be crucial to the aims of his group.
Any vote that Farage is in favour of I'm against. I call it the Farage Principle. He wants to deregulate even further employment terms and conditions to remove all protection from workers. That's the real agenda of him and the tory right. That's their agenda not sovereignty or immigration but making the rich richer through removing basic work place protection. In other times with stronger unions in the UK I would probably agree with the Bennite position. I'm certainly no fan of the European project which is set up to promote and streamline capitalism but unfortunately we live in these times where only European saves us from rapacious capitalism.
It's a good argument and one which I have heard before, however, it has lost a lot of validity over the last few years. Principally because of the rise of independence parties in Scotland and Wales. These have effectively blocked The Labour party from power, condemning us to Conservative rule. In such a climate, I welcome the ability of Europe to dictate to our (Tory) Government in areas such as workers rights etc. Because, like it or not, the Tories WILL reduce the rights of workers and we WILL be ruled by upper and middle class ex-Oxbridge, ex-public school establishment w**kers whatever we put in the ballot box. Remember the debate about non-doms last year before the election and the revelation about Cameron's money in the Virgin Islands? Says it all. Oh and by the way, I don't support Labour, I'm a member of the Green Party, the only one which is dedicated to a sustainable future for our kids and grand kids. My second choice would be Labour or (pre-2010) the Lib-Dems, I hate the Tories and would vote tactically if there was a chance to get rid of one of them.
I'm broadly supportive of The Green Party's aims . But I have concerns that from a party political point of view , strength in depth with other European greens may be seen as beneficial from a self interest rather than a UK point of view...not that there's anything necessarily wrong in looking after their own interests , just that it has to be considered when viewing their ( or anyone else's ) position. I think we run the risk of over egging the EU's commitment to green and liberal thinking. Don't forget the British Parliament banned Foxhunting...the EU quite happily allows the disgusting practices of force feeding Ducks and Geese to death in the French tradition of foie gras...and will apparently make no moves against the equally abhorrent 'sport' of bullfighting in Spain....were either of these carried out exclusively in China or Korea...the EU ruling class would be up in arms...but France and Spain ?
Whilst I am concerned about animal welfare, that is only secondary to the greater imperative of protecting our environment and halting global warming. Things which if not done now will result in a planet where extinctions of the past will be seen as a mere trifle compared to those to come.
I agree...but that's not to say that the EU will provide that..it cannot..only global cooperation , and nothing stops us being part of that . As to your earlier points ''it's a good argument and one which I have heard before, however, it has lost a lot of validity over the last few years. Principally because of the rise of independence parties in Scotland and Wales. These have effectively blocked The Labour party from power, condemning us to Conservative rule. In such a climate, I welcome the ability of Europe to dictate to our (Tory) Government in areas such as workers rights etc.'' I think it remains valid.. things are often cyclical...the rise of PC and the SNP may have dented Labour's chances to govern alone at the moment..but there is still the opportunity to share Govt. with like minded people. There are also signs that Plaid Cymru may have peaked and who is to say that the SNP will continue to go forward...and don't forget only a few years ago the Tories were unelectable , and that will happen again I'm sure.