EU......In or Out

couldnt you have put a not voting option?

 

The fact that the poll on this forum is marginally in favour of brexit at the time of writing, even though a clear majority of its posters are left of centre politically, makes me wonder whether the outcome of the actual referendum in 2 weeks time is not even going to be close.

 

So if the final result is 50.1% out v 49.9 in, do we leave the eu? Is there a certain majority that needs to be gained or just a majority. Can't find the answer to that on all the faq sites. Ta

 

Whatever the outcome of this vote, and whatever people's views about the key protagonists in the debate, the one clear thing for me is that Jeremy Corbyn's stance throughout has been nothing short of feeble. It shows him up to be weak and a poor apology of a leader of the opposition. His very rare utterances on the subject has been devoid of any sense of passion, making it bloody obvious that he does not believe a word of what he feels compelled to say, and there has been not one shred of recognition that the issue is bigger than the petty political point scoring that lace his appalling speeches on the subject. If remaining in the EU is what the left collectively believe is the right thing to do and we vote to leave, then a lot of Labour supporters should be very angry with his pathetic "leadership" throughout. The Labour party, as an official opposition, is an irrelevance under his leadership.

 

To be fair to Corbyn , one argument could be he's hardly got his feet under the table and dropped into the most momentous decision we can make.
On the other hand it is so disappointing he apparently can't be seen as reaching a position and arguing the case...whichever way that is. For me
he should act with his lifetime convictions and worry about a Blairite backlash afterwards .

 

Just read this article ( Posted by someone on here )

https://semipartisansam.com/2016/06...ely-attacking-the-norway-option-for-a-reason/

and it seems we are only voting to leave the political part of the european project , correct me if im wrong

 

Simple majority will do. The referendum is not legally binding in the sense that it forces the Govt to quit the EU. But in reality having called the vote the Govt will have no choice. But we don't know what deal the Govt would do. Could be an arrangement similar to what we already have - single market access in return for unrestricted migration.

 

That would be the sensible option - removal from the political union and keep access to the single market whilst we then negotiated and structured deals with the rest of the world on mutual terms - something we can't do now without all member states agreeing.

This keeps free movement which upsets the extremes on the leave side, but is necessary to allow us time to sort the detail. Notice how Cameron et al now say the leave camp want to leave the single market - and they now try and rubbish Norway's economy - bull, but it keeps the economic scare stories alive. This isn't a general election as remain likes to portray it's a vote on the political entity that is the EU.

We can have the single market and not be beholden to the European Commission imposing laws on us. Remain ignore this because they want to scare people into keeping the status quo which enrichens failed politicians (Kinnock, Mandelson) and benefits the banks and global corporations at our expense.

 

Trouble is that this is the only issue most people are voting out on. Can you imagine the uproar when the reality bites that exiting the EU isn't going to stop immigration. It would be nice to have a debate about the stuff we agree on, but one thing Farage is right about is the out vote will only win if it focuses on immigration.

You could argue that if that's what people care about then fair enough, but the debate should at least be honest that there are very few, if any, scenarios where leaving the EU will result in significantly reduced immigration.

At the end of the day I think me and you agree on most stuff, we've just come down on different sides of the fence. If I genuinely thought Sadbrewer's vision of what will happen could come true I would probably vote out, but I just think being outside Europe make's us more dependent on free market capitalism, not less.

I would just add, I wish the politicians and media were capable of the level of adult and nuanced debate that is happening on the BBS.

 

Agree totally pal, but the media like a pantomime and that's what they try and stir up.

If I thought the end justified the means I'd be pleased that 'immigration' might win the debate - but that's not honest from either side - fwiw I think there has to be a debate about uncontrolled movement of workers who if they follow human nature will migrate to where they can earn more money and have a better life - but there has to be consideration on the wider impact that has on the society they migrate to if in large numbers, and on the role companies play in trying to keep wages down and not investing in the local workforce - theoretically they can move to where employment costs are cheapest or import cheap labour - both feasible in the EU. But what role do the local workforce have ? Will they do these low paid jobs ? It's a complicated issue, not solved or helped by some in leave who try and make out it's all 'migrants' fault and a leave vote will solve it - dishonest.

If the leave campaign had been grown up and spoken about the political issues then we may he had a better debate, but on the flip side, the outright lies of Cameron and the scare stories from EU funded institutions wouldn't allow that.

Evidence that the world has 'dumbed down' - the cynic In me can't help but feel that suits those that govern and 'serve' us....

 

Funny that. I was thinking the same. If socialist Barnsley with its recent history is so close what about areas not so blighted by Right wing governments

 

Re: EU......In or Out One point not really mentioned...

As with Greece agreeing to yet another round of austerity cuts to get yet another 'bail out' from the Loan shar.....(sorry EU) which they can never afford to pay back, by voting in, are we not ourselves merely kicking the can down the road by staying in a clubn that is ultimately going to fail? Can anyone on here really put hand on heart and say the European Union is heading down the right path? Better to get the pain over with - we suffer either leaving oor staying in anyway.

 

Thats because immigration is a big issue.
And it stretches beyond the sterotypical little englander with the stealing our jobs line...

Theres people living in towns cities and villages that are struggling to keep a british identity,struggling under the impact of rapid mass migration,struggling to keep a lid on racial tensions.
Then you turn the tv,pick up a newspaper and theres more on their way seeking the better life.
One of the few thngs that struck a chord with me on last nights 'debate' was about the eastern european barristas. ..

Made me think about the future. If i had kids would they be able to get part time work as a barrista,burger flipper, waitresses etc the jobs typically associated with the student fraternity and my answer was highly unlikely.

 

I don't think anyone would disagree that migration brings challenges. But there is a counter-point, which is the huge benefits immigration brings. And that many of the people now criticising immigration were parts of previous waves of immigration because it was forever thus.

The problems IMO are far more related to areas of poverty and deprivation caused by the abandonment of traditional working class communities by consecutive governments.

 

Apart from cheap labour i am struggling for a positive benefit.

And i would suspect that many others would struggle unless you throw in the ' they put more into the economy than they take out' rhetoric.

 

Well, there is that argument, allied with an ageing demographic. If we all want to retire before we die we're going to need some people of working age.

Its all about personal view I suppose, but the migrants (first, second or third generation and on) that I have known and met have had a hugely positive impact on my life. Whether that's my mate who's a third generation Pole, my mate's Hungarian girlfriend, a German lad I play football with. My best mate is half Nigerian, another (who's recently migrated to Australia) is half Haitian. Another has married a Chilean woman. One of the best architects I've worked with came here from Poland. A couple of Muslim guys at work. Conversely 3 of my very close mates now live abroad.

One of the best days of my life was the Hindu wedding we went to a couple of year ago when my mate married a second generation Gujarati girl. We all got to dress in Indian clothes for the day. My daughter absolutely loved it.