And there you have it!...

"Germany has warned that it will shut Britain out of the single market if voters opt for Brexit in the European Union referendum.

Wolfgang Schäuble, the finance minister, said the bloc would still work without the United Kingdom and that “at some point the British will realise they have taken the wrong decision”.

So EU is now also in panic mode making threats. Very telling. Also an unwitting admission that Germany is running the show. What about the other countries in the bloc? Do they not have a say in any negotiations?

It also highlights one of the main problems of the EU 'powers that be' -particularly Germany. Herr Schauble clearly has no inkling of the British mentality. A threat like that will achieve the exact opposite of what he wants as many undecided Brits will have an adverse reaction to threats coming from someone outside the UK, particularly given the history between the two countries, Germany. I am sure Mercedes and VW will be delighted with his intervention given the potential loss of exports of their cars to the UK.

The same can actually be said of the Remaiin camp who have changed tack and are now openly personalising the argument by targeting Johnson and Farage at every opportunity rather than focussing on the issues.

As has been pointed they are only telling us what they believe is bad about Brexit, but have been very reticent about the Good points of staying in, probably because in an unreformed EU with people like Herr Schauble at the helm, they are in short supply.

As a footnote, whatever you think about Farage, of the Andrew Neil interviewees thus far, he was by far the most impressive as he did not dodge questions. He did get stuck on the 40-50k per annum immigration target but even then he caveated it with an acknowledgement that from where we are starting it would be difficult and take a long time. However rabid left you are you cannot deny that positive discrimination for EU movement rights des discriminate against the rest of the world. James Dyson has said the same today in that it takes 4-5 months to get engineers and scientists from outside the EU particularly the Far East due to complications brought on by the EU regulations in the way the Home Office processes

 

Bluster.

The EU has £350 billion of unfunded liabilities. They'll want some cash from us for that if we stay, so if we leave there's a bargaining chip right there. I'm also sure the CEO's of BMW, Merc and VW would have something to input.

 

I don't think anyone really doubts we would be able to negotiate access to the single market. The point is we will have to pay and accept regulations and more than likely free movement to do so. This is why Farage gets ridiculed. He's selling a lie that we can get all he wants for nowt. That's the biggest untruth on either side.

 

Farage is a *****. He's built a case on immigration and painted himself into a corner rearding future access to the single market. Meanwhile there are sound positive economic arguments round a WTO/EEA deal for leave which aren't argued for and allows Cameron to perpetuate his Armageddon scare stories. At least Gisele Stuart and Andrea Leadsom tried to get them on the agenda.

 

Why is it lie? You may be right. However I am not sure at all that it is that 'nailed-on'.

No state has EVER left the EU. Compound that with the fact we are a) the 5th largest Economy in the World b) Net contributors to the EU as c) oneof its biggest customers

There is NO precedent. I agre that since, free movemet is enshrined in EU legislaion theis no direct linbeween that and singlemarke. One is the political side of the EU amnd the othe isore reled to the origional EC economic trade organisaion wich the EU stated out as. Jus beause ****ries joining have to abide by the current rules means jack sh*t in this situation. Of course they will play hard ball (particularly Germany as they see their plans for a federal Europe with them at the helm going up in smoke) but if we do leave various governments will come under extreme pressure from manufacturers in Europe to maintain their export market to the UK. As I said we are NET importers from Europe by some considerable margin.

 

They will need our money to bail them out. Both France and Germany will be bankrupt within five years whether we pull out or not. The Euro is in meltdown, and if we vote to stay in, Brussels will order the UK to increase its payments, and there will be nothing that the UK government will be able to do about it.

This whole EU situation is similar in a way to the Scottish Derian expeditions. Dreamers over Realists?

 

Lots of people are going to end up voting on gut feeling I reckon, voting the opposite to whoever puts their back up most when they open their gob. A terrible indictment that. I suppose it's why lots said we shouldn't have a referendum, because the debate is too complex. What I didn't quite grasp is that neither side would even start to engage with the complexities.

 

Fed up!! Don't be daft . VW and Mercedes to name just two would have his head on a spike if they though he was deliverately trying to exclude Britain

 

Because if we're allowed to leave but remain in the single market without any concession the EU falls apart over night.

 

he's in panic mode because if we leave there will be a wave of calls from other dissatisfied countries calling for a referendum of their own and if the EU goes down like a line of dominoes Germany loses a lot of power not to mention the money they have invested in it.

 

Exactly. Can you imagine the reaction of German companies being told that they had to punish us. It isn't going to happen.

 

All say they want to see a reformed EU, Cameron only got minor concessions (even the ones he got aren't legally binding) with the UK threat to withdraw, more reforms are NOT going to be agreed in the future, so lets get out NOW, before were required to part fund the EU defecit.

 

It's not punishing us though is it. There are rules for being in the club and we (well some of us) don't want to play by them. We want to be a special case. If it was the other way round our opinion would be the same.

 

It will fall apart anyway. The current structure has become unsustainable. The EZ was always the going to be the problem in or out of it. Disparate economies unable control their own interest rates and the ECB controlling QE is fantasy land . They have constantly kicked the can down the road regarding Greece (who by the EUs own rules should never have been allowed in - exposing the corruption and agenda of the EU commission) with 'pay-day loans' which Greece will NEVER repay. They even proposed a two speed EZ . How that would have 'worked' no-one could say (because it wouldnt).

Basically the EU is 'fu*ked' . The best thing would be to go back to the old concept of the EEC (which is what Britain actually signed up to) and forget the pipe dream of a federal Europe. People have compared this to the USA but it would be more like the USSR and we know what happened to that.

 

That's a completely different argument. I'm pointing out why access to the single market without strings isn't going to happen, yet it is what people are being told they can have.

 

And thereyou have the reason for wanting to vote out. Why join a club or continue to play subs if you dont like what's on offer. After all unlike a BFC season ticket - you never know what you will get one season to the next - the EU is just going to get worse year by year as reforms within are as likely - to quote Boris Johnson- " as discovering Elvis on the moon or me being reincarnated as an olive"

 

If nothing else it's shone a light onto how blatantly devious and dishonest politicians are. Putting career before principles, complete contempt for the electorate.

 

Yes but in my earlier post in this thread I stated whyI did not agree that access without strings is not possible, or at least not all the existing constraints (including free movement)

 

Isn't this meant to be a football board. Didn't people get banned for repetitive posting. And other musings for a rainy Saturday.

I think it's fairly simple. If we leave we will still trade with Europe and we will either do so on understandably less advantageous terms or still access trade on the same terms and still accept free movement of people but have zero input into the process. The Farage lie is amusing though.