remainers on here please take note these are actual facts :

More Out fackts

 

the entire eu project is based around capitalism,thats why people like cameron think its fantastic.The labour party darnt come in favour of leave because if a single job is lost it will be on their head,same goes for the majority of the unions.

there isnt a more left wing,union supporting paper than the morning star and they seem to think that the eu has done practically nothing for workers rights,they think its all smoke and mirrors that they champion workers rights such as maternity/paternity/holiday pay.

https://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-6560-The-EU-attacks-our-pay-and-undermines-unions#.V17ZkPkrLIV

 

The world economy is largely based on capitalism.... and you could argue even the communist states have shifted to a more capitalist structure.

so whether we're in the EU or not in the EU, large companies will still be trying to make as much money as they possibly can and cutting costs however they deem fit for shareholder benefit.

 

Everyone should watch the full 70 minutes of 'Brexit - the Movie' which made up my mind.

 

To be honest the issue doesn't exercise me enough to look into it and I'm not trying to convince anyone so it's not summat I'd be arsed to do. You could just get the information and present a balanced picture. Of course factually every trade deal we have done since the formation of the Common Market with other partner is countries have been at a fiscal advantage (that's not to say some sort of advantage can't be obtained without membership). Still any basic trawl of the internet can provide you with facts to balance your information

As I said I'd vote in because I like paid holidays,maternity pay. Paternity pay and the only consensus between everyone seems to be that leaving would give the tory right the opportunity to ditch these.

 

This Guardian columnist doesn't seem to worry about it.
Philip Landau

Founder member of Landau Law, specialist London-based employment law solicitor firm. He writes regularly for the Guardian
on topical employment law matters, including how European judgments impact on the UK. He advises daily on employment law
matters, most of which derive from Europe.
There is unlikely to be a change to holiday allowances or maternity and paternity rules following a vote to leave. Maternity provisions
in the UK generally either meet, or are more generous than, the minimum requirements of the EU. In addition, the UK has enhanced
such rights, such as the right to shared parental leave and to request flexible working. It is unlikely that such rules would be rolled back.
The same goes for holiday allowances, which were adopted following the EU’s Working Time Directive and provide for a
minimum 5.6 weeks paid holiday a year (which can include bank holidays). Although the rules emanated from the EU, it would
be politically unthinkable for the government to reduce these allowances.

Don't forget... if they did we could still vote them out.

 

Both Johnson and IDS have stated they wish to repeal the Working Time Directive the only thing guaranteeing paid holidays. Farage is equally clear. Why would I take the risk? The post Brexit Tory party would be as rapidly right wing as possible. Thatcher used the Falklands to victimise and penalise the Working class. A right wing Tory party post Brexit would use their victory to do exactly the same. Thatcher had no trouble getting reelected.

 

Dennis Skinners View.
DENNIS SKINNER has broken his silence over the EU referendum and revealed that he will vote to Leave. The veteran Labour MP was among the handful of MPs on either side of the debate who had not publicly declared how they will vote on June 23. But the “Beast of Bolsover” has voted against every European treaty being incorporated into British law since he entered Parliament in 1970.Speaking to the Morning Star yesterday, he confirmed he was backing a break with Brussels because he did not believe progressive reform of the EU could be achieved. He said: “My opposition from the very beginning has been on the lines that fighting capitalism state-by-state is hard enough. It’s even harder when you’re fighting it on the basis of eight states, 10 states and now 28.“In the old days they could argue you might get a socialist government in Germany, but there’s not been one for donkeys’ years. “At one time there was Italy, the Benelux countries, France and Germany, Portugal, Spain and us. “Now there’s just one in France and it’s hanging on by the skin of its teeth.”
Mr Skinner said the prospect of the NHS being subject to the rules of the pro-privatisation TTIP trade deal between the EU and US was also a “significant” factor in his decision to vote Leave. Labour warned this week that workers’ rights, such as four weeks paid holiday, maternity and paternity leave, equal pay and health and safety laws, could be at risk if Britain leaves the EU. But Mr Skinner pointed out many of those rights are enshrined in British law and believes the Tories “couldn’t shift them.”
He said: “What [the EU] should be doing, if it wanted to convince people like me, is have a directive to get rid of zero-hours contracts across the whole of the EU. That’s what I’d be looking for.” Mr Skinner insisted that his wish to leave the EU was not “based upon waving a flag or immigration.” Instead, he said, the country needs to learn from the miners if it wants to achieve community cohesion. “When I left school and went to work in the pits I was working with displaced persons from Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania and so on,” he told the Star. “The reason why that didn’t create a great many problems for the miners was that we insisted that they could not undermine our wages, they would be paid the same as us whatever job they did. “And what’s more they had to join the appropriate union. That’s why there was harmony in the pits and that’s what should happen today.”
Although Mr Skinner will be voting differently to Jeremy Corbyn, he backed the party leader’s refusal to share a platform with political opponents during the campaign. “I won’t join these Tory and Ukip campaigns, I don’t believe in helping to bolster their prestige,” he said. “I told Tony Benn when he was surrounded by Union Jacks in Trafalgar Square that he shouldn’t be on that bloody platform. “So I don’t play any part with them.” Despite that, his intervention was welcomed by Labour MP Gisela Stuart, who leads the cross-party Leave campaign. She said: “Dennis is one of the most respected figures in the Labour Party and his decision to vote to Leave will send a signal to many thousands of hard-working Labour supporters that traditional Labour values and workers’ rights are best protected if we leave the EU and take back control.”

The top and bottom of it too many Labour voters have lost confidence in winning the next election...personally I think it's possible...even if it needs the Scot Nats.

 

In other times I would agree with Dennis. Politically I do agree with Dennis. I am no fan of the capitalist club. However these are not other times there are no unions strong enough to defend workers rights. Dennis might not want to acknowledge that to be honest neither do I but times have changed. We live in a post unionised workforce. Times have changed. The poorest. The weakest. Those are the people who will suffer. Not the rich. These are the people who will be stripped of the basic rights they have to keep us ' competitive'.

I suspect the Scot Nationalists will be running their own country should we leave the EU and will have no bearing on UK elections as it will give the SNP the platform for another referendum. Again the political landscape is changed and we need to accept that and move forward not cling to the past.

People should vote however they want but putting up one sided facts helps no one the information available is critical. The standard of debate is generally below infantile.

 

Pretty well written JImmy and well thought out...although I do think it's defeatist (no criticism of you..just my observation of the tone of the Labour position generally.) For me Greece has proven beyond any reasonable doubt the EU will come down hard on members who step out of line
with social policies..that is little more than dictatorship..we can accept it as a fait accompli or we can tell them where to shove it, as a political statement, we ( in my opinion ) should follow that albeit bloody minded line.

 

Sorry double post

 

I'm generally one for the bloody minded line and I don't on some levels disagree with it. Before I became a father I guess I would probably have said sod it too. I worry too much about a world for my kids where they have no protection for the excesses of capitalism no buffer to stop them being exploited. If I could see that there was a buffer other than the EU to protect there basic employment rights then I would vote differently but I genuinely in the here and now don't see this.

Greece like you say were battered down but they had a clear political left leaning mandate and should have stood firm. Ultimately they were let down by their own politicians which is sad really.

 

Looks like a very strong argument to stay in Europe. Industry and Universities are so large and complex these days they only operate by having links across many different countries. Being in Europe increases the pot of money available to share and reduces the rules and regulations by standardizing them over a vast area. For example its almost meaningless to talk about a British manufactured car or aeroplane. Components are made across many different countries with central support from Europe.

 

As a former employee of Jaguar LandRover (1990 to 2013) and TATA Steel in S****horpe (2015) I can say with absolute certainty that

1) When JLR was sold by Ford, the ONLY potential buyer was TATA and the company has gone from strength to strength (I don't know about the Slovakia bit but they are also building plants in China and India so if they weren't expanding into Slovakia, they'd be going into Brazil and other emerging economies)
2) the British Steel industry would not be still here today without TATA, they took on the business and have lost a huge amount of money in the process.

Get your facts right.

 

Don't forget that TATA were in a 4 month bidding war with Brazil's CSN. They ended up vastly overpaying with the intention of access to European markets.

 

Here's the LSE take on it.

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/55539-2/

 

Interesting though how some of these people and organisations could be construed as being not as independent as they claim . The OECD ...hq in Paris ...funded by Govts , including the UK....one of the top men Yves Leterme former Belgian PM..and fellow party member of Herman Van Rompuy president of The EU.

What is also interesting is that the IFS quote data from NIESR...but omits the part in their conclusion
that if the right deals on trade were made " the impact might be neutral or even positive"
They were obviously so impressed by that comment they failed to mention it.

 

What you need to do is completely ignore companies that have here because of EU grants. If you do that you'll end up with a rounded view and you wouldn't want that. You know like Nissan or Toyota or more locally koyo

 

This is a blog/opinion piece. Pretty sure these 4 academics think the chance of getting better/same trade deals as currently exist are slim post Brexit and indeed they state that, using Norway as an example.

I suspect many of us are guilty of confirmational bias on this subject and we'll pick want we want from most articles on the subject.