The undicided in the EU vote needs to ask themselves one question

Re: And the question real is...

Is there only a far left in the Labour party these days?

 

Re: And the question real is...

Same people as do now..mutual trade is in everyone's interest. More than 50% of our trade is with the rest of the world..the EU countries don't buy out of sympathy or solidarity just commonsense trading reasons.

 

Re: And the question real is...

Not as many as far rights in the tory party tbh.

 

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That wasn't my question. It seems that any Labour MP who isn't on the left of the party is accused of being Tory lite. I just think it's pretty small minded.

 

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those who do now.

 

Re: And the question real is...

Well you would with your politics though.

My reasoning is simply what's the point of two similar parties ? There's just no choice in that .
If Tories were advocating labour party values would you still think the same,?

 

Re: And the question real is...

Re: The undecided in the EU vote needs to ask themselves one question....

 

Re: And the question real is...

Both main parties have a political spectrum. They are Labour MPs because they believe in Labour policies and are elected by Labour supporters. I may not agree with everything that the Tory party stand for but I don't see the MPs just slightly right of centre as Labour lite.

And I may have some right wing values but I also agree with some Labour party policies too.

 

Worth a listen

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07jczmc

For a proper look at the numbers

 

Re: And the question real is...

So according to you I shouldn't question why people such as peter Mandelson etc have changed their values from their campaigning younger days that gave them a safe seat for most of their career , and has now more in common with the Tories than Ken Clarke .
Our party has a proud history of fighting self interest agsinst public interest even when its coming from within.

 

Re: And the question real is...

I am a Professor and 9 out of 10 university staff support remain
https://www.timeshighereducation.co...-nine-out-of-ten-university-staff-back-remain

 

Re: And the question real is...

No, I didn't say that. It just seems a very commonly used phrase to belittle the political beliefs of MPs who are towards the centre in the Labour party. As I said there is a political spectrum in most mainstream parties, it just seems to be frowned upon in the Labour party. It was a Tory lite MP that gave the party their most successful period in decades.

 

Re: And the question real is...

If you think I'm bad keep away from Dennis Skinner and Kevin McGuire your ears will explode.
You seem to pick on the labour party for this ,don't you think this happens in Tory party ?
They are on the verge of committing throttlingcide with each other , this happens in all party's .
As a lifelong paying member and activist I've seen plenty going on and some MPs will sell their own grandmothers for an extra step on the ladder never mind shitting on their own parties. Neil Hamilton would sing the red flag for a brown envelope full of tenners.
Some of the labour MPs I am bemoaning have voted against Labour policy in the chambers .
Some MPs on all sides have to be reminded what they are there for , OK on some votes they have to vote with their consciences eg death penalty etc and I can live with that .
But others will sell their constituents way down the river .
Remember the pit closure programme in 92 when the loyalist parties in NI were going to abstain but voted for the Tories for an enhanced benefits system for their constituents.
And the Tory lite you refer to was just that .
No meaningful full blown labour policies like the Tory's do for theirs.

 

Re: And the question real is...

Im sorry if my view point came across spouting rhetoric that you found offensive, that wasnt my intention, the point im making and it can easily be checked is that the federal state idea which what the Germans want is exactly what Hittler had in mind ...if you research you will find that the world powers eventually want one world government and the federal state of Europe is the start of many things that belong to the New world order.
The elite families of the world are slowly but surely shaping the way forward.
The labour party are saying that we should be more progressive and be sat at the top table making policy, hence the differences between the said parties.
Unfortunately the European parliament whilst happy for more involvement will never benefit the low classes, it was they if im not mistaken, that allowed zero hour contracts to take place, until folk wake up and smell the roses, that its only the big business, yes the very same businesses that avoided and got away with paying their dues in the uk that will reap the most benefit.from us remaining. the very same union that are now attempting to pass laws whereby a company can sue individual governments if they feel that the said governments are effecting their profits...
i kid you not ....research my points and you will find more stuff that is slowly being taken away from us....European union who passed the law on herbalists and took away our rights to natural remedies and outlawed the sale of over the counter drugs...the list goes on....where will it stop...

what we are told and what is taking place is two different things....

i know it goes to the extreme but regards my initial comment thats exactly how the need for a federal state started and we all know what happened once people said no.

a united Germany if left to its own devices is too powerful in many ways ....not my words but words of German people that ive read whilst doing certain research in which way to vote.

Hence Ive made up my mind to vote out. and that coming from a person who for a great deal of the time has lived in both Portugal and Spain....even my friends and ex family who live in Portugal ( Portuguese ) would given the choice would vote to leave.....Nations need to keep their individuality and not put all their eggs in one basket.

 

Re: And the question real is...

Firstly could I say I'm pleased that anyone opens the debate up with new sides to the story . I try and give balance and am not remotely swayed by the Johnny foreigner or little englander arguments....I may or may not disagree butI will argue the point if it has value , but I do not shout people down , I only try and advance reasoned argument

However on reading the survey that is not a fair and balanced conclusion despite the headline.

I think you are right people in higher education may support remain..(we've touched on it before) and in my view probably quite convincingly...but the headline 90 % could be seen as more than slightly misleading..or at very least has other aspects to consider in the overall debate.
The survey as the article fairly points out has the caveat that it is self selecting..meaning basically if you have a bee in your bonnet ( whatever the issue ) you are more likely to respond . It says there are over 403,000 people involved in higher education and yet only 1082 people were committed enough to respond..less than a quarter of 1% .

Of those who responded
60% said they would stay in the UK whatever the result .
40 % said they were more likely to leave in the event of a Brexit...not that they would leave...just more likely .

The report says ''Several respondents raised the prospect of leaving the UK in their comments.''..how many is several ..3 or 1082 ?...unspecific at best and anyone involved in any kind of serious research knows you must be dispassionate clinical and open about the figures.

It says..
One said: “My entire research team is funded by EU money. Obviously without belonging to the EU we can’t continue with the work we are doing.''
A fair comment I'm sure , but surely they could have quoted many more in view of the 90% headline ?

It Says...
A number of respondents said that freedom of movement within the EU had brought them career benefits and declared that they viewed immigration as a positive force for individuals and society.
Fine...but your own personal career benefits are of no interest to the wider population...and your view that immigration is a positive force (which I don't disagree with ) is irrelevant in an educational survey .

“My entire adult life has been based around the freedoms granted by the EU, which I consider to be my birthright. I have no interest in living in, or being a citizen of, a UK outside the EU,” one respondent said.
Again a fair personal comment...unrelated to education.
Interesting perhaps that the main thrust is unrelated to higher education...perhaps the authors have just been sloppy.

The most interesting part is though
Universities UK has run a high-profile campaign highlighting what it sees as the benefits of EU membership for British universities, in terms of research funding worth £1.2 billion a year, increased international collaboration in research, and greater researcher and student mobility.

Perhaps the high-profile campaign has swelled the less than a quarter of 1% numbers...it can't surely have diminished it.


The comments quoted from Nick Hillman, director of the Higher Education Policy Institute
Mr Hillman said of the survey’s findings in general: “The level of consensus worries me a little in the sense that universities are witnessing less fierce debates about the merits and disadvantages of Brexit compared with some other areas of society''
That alone is a worrying admission.... I value anyone involved in education..as my own son is , but Mr. Hillman's conclusion suggests he is highlighting that there may be a an issue of higher educationalists being disconnected from the arguments of the wider population.

I think any competent academic would be more careful about putting findings like these as fact into a serious article without expecting a challenge.

 

Re: And the question real is...

Some of you feel powerless in this set up. I know the feeling. But the people who will benefit from brexit won't be you, sorry. Please join us to change the EU

 

Re: And the question real is...

You can start by joining Labour, the working person's party

 

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My comment would be , I admire the optimism...and you are right that people feel powerless , but 40 years of experience suggest to me you cannot change the EU by remaining...the only thing that can change the EU is for a people to vote Leave ...possibly any of the major contributors not necessarily Britain...but we are the only ones who have ever had a chance.
The only way forward is to leave the EU, vote the Tories out (it can and will be done) and change Britain ourselves.

 

Re: And the question real is...

Fair points. But not my argument at all.

My view is that much modern science (I cannot really speak for the arts) is so expensive, that it requires sharing of equipment and ideas, that it really requires us to pool resources, grant money and research teams.

Yes you can you that from outside Europe, but its a lot easier inside with one set of rules.

As I have previously posted, shortly I am about to be running a university outside Europe. As things stand if the UK votes leave I will be able to collaborate with the rest of Europe through a single pot of money and a single grant application. But to collaborate with British universities, as yet there is no pot of money and I will need a whole different set of regulations. Sorry, I am going to play with the big boys, not you little Englanders.