He's been!!!!

Being ruled by people they didn't elect and couldn't un-elect was precisely the reason for the American War of Independence, we're now having our own bloodless version and quite right too, anyone against it is against Democracy and a believer in Oligarchy.

Oh and Morrissey is a Brexiteer.

 

That attitude is why you lost.

 

Hi Ian ,
Obviously you have a better insight into feelings up there , would you say your own area is pro SNP ? ...and if so would you say it is representative of a general national feeling ?
If I were a Scot I may well be a Scot Nat....I don't know for sure , but when any official forms ask for nationality , I put British , English comes second to me ....but I do understand that the Scottish Labour Party has let you down , without going into too much detail the Labour Party in my area is a corrosive self interested organisation ( in my view ) that seems to have lost sight of the common good . Things though are cyclical and a decent Labour Party will emerge eventually , actually the decent man to lead it is already in place , but sadly so many of the PLP are careerists who only worry about their personal aggrandisment , and by the same token some of those who joined the Party to (ostensibly ) support Jeremy Corbyn are not necessarily compatible with a democratic but left wing party .
As to Scotland I genuinely worry for you that The SNP leadership will clutch at any straw for another Referendum at any time , and the country will be left with very difficult decisions . Without wanting to appear to agree with the sentiment of an earlier poster , the fact is that Scotland has been given an enhanced status in the last 20 years over ie. The north of England with the Barnett formula , I don't disagree with it though , it only serves to repay a debt owed from years of
neglect , but another Indyref poses even more questions than Brexit ,.
The Barnett formula will go , but will Scotland be able to rejoin the EU , do Scots actually want to rejoin the EU ? will they be forced into the Euro....and most importantly if allowed to join will they be a net contributor or a net beneficiary . My guess is that the EU would be difficult to negotiate with whilst Spain is a member .
If I were of a nationalist persuasion , I would delay while Brexit is sorted out , see what the options now are , and probably opt to stay ( whilst retaining the option to leave if necessary ) if things go well .....if not go for Independence outside the EU ...the richest nations per head are the small ones on the periphery , Norway and Switzerland ....Scotland has the capacity for a tidy niche market in there .

 

You mean like being ruled by an unelected extremist on the whim of a 3.8% majority of 71% of people of voting age after a campaign of blatant lies with a yes or no answer which can easily be misinterpreted and could have easily been satisfied with far less extreme measures?
Not forgetting those people not of voting age will be the worst affected and people like yourself will be dead when the worst of this decision bites us.

I suppose you're right that does satisfy your criteria for an uprising and I'd be on the front line.

 

Sorry AI I think you are living in a parallel universe and letting your heart rule your head. I really don't want to start an argument but I think your patriotism and passion for Scotland is clouding your judgement. Where on Earth do you get the evidence to support you statement above? The parallel petitions clearly indicated that most people (and the demographics showed most signatories were in Scotland) overwhelmingly voted to NOT have another indyref).
I fear for an independent Scotland because without the Barnett formula and the subsidies it entails, the falling revenue from Oil ( much less than when Indyref 1 happened) and the fact and yes it IS a fact, you could not simply take EU membership over from the UK and would have to apply for membership which you currently do not qualify for with your financial situation means you would be a basket case. Add to that the sUK wouòd relocate the warship building programme from the Clyde with the resultant loss of jobs, NS has no idea what currency you would use, you would have a huge cost in setting up embassies, border controls etc. etc.
NS hates being ruled by Westminster, the main reason the SNP want independence, but then wants to join the EU where she would be controlled by an organisation even further detached from the needs of Scotland so you would be an even smaller fish in a massive pool. It doesn't make any logical sense.

I it is not even as if the SNP is doing a good job on domestic policy by all accounts. Education was one of the thing sScotland was great at and that is rapidly deteriorating by all accounts under the SNP.

Please don't take this as a dig at you or Scotland. I love the place and the vast majority of Scottish people (although I have encountered over the years a small minority of very 'anti English' (mainly young people around Dundee and Glasgow it has to be said) but genuinely want to know why you are so confident that Scotland would benefit from (and will vote for) Independence. It is nothing like the UK leaving the EU as the two economies are vastly different.

PS Just thought, If you DID get independence you would have to start the process of negotiating trade deals like the UK except as a new country and not even in the WTO you would be starting from scratch and nearly two years behind the sUK.

 

Thank you for that superb reply SB.
As you know I'm from Dundee. 1 of only 3 areas to overwhelmingly support Independence. The other 2 being Glasgow and E Dunbartonshire (I think). So very pro SNP here but obviously not representative of the rest of Scotland but hopefully after recent events and the huge support of remaining within the EU being denied that support will grow.
Scottish Labour and the Labour party in general let me down 20 years ago. The death of John Smith was a huge blow and Tony (warmongering) Blair confirmed my deflection to the SNP. Labour here has no chance with that silly girl Dugdale. I do like Corbyn, went to Dundee University a couple of years ago to hear him speak. An interesting man to listen to.
Sounds like SNP will be taking their time to make their move but at the same time keeping the pressure on Mayhem by trying to extract an answer as to if she will give "permission" to have inde ref2. Not that we need permission as we could go it alone but SNP just going through the right channels. Mayhem can say yes and chance losing or she can say no and get the Scots backs up of even more dislike for her and her govt. Big dilema for her. Hence her dragging her feet.
Now not really sure if we want to remain in the EU. I think Nicola played a good game there by using it to get a reason for Indy ref2. Although 68% (?) of Scots did vote to remain so that alone suggests we really do wish to remain part of the EU.
From what I have read the Norway model is what Scotland would like to copy.

My personal opinion is would being Independent and whether in or out of the EU be any worse than being what we have under this shower of NHS dismantling, education charging, tax avoiding scumbags.

Away from Scotland I'd say Ireland is a bigger problem. Unification looks even more likely now. Unfortunately this will possibly go with the return of the troubles. All on Mayhems watch.

BTW Sadbrewer you might like to try and explain the Barnett formula to Gloria. Don't think she is quite up to date.

 

Tekky you put over a good argument and I really have no answer. I listen to the TV with an open mind and taking in the information from both sides and I still think Independence is the better option. Of course I could be very wrong.

What I would like to ask is what Anti English treatment did you encounter here in Dundee? I've got to say I have never witnessed any of this. Obviously there are bampots going about, like everywhere but this is really not what Dundee is like. Think you must just have been unlucky here.
Where exactly did you encounter the trouble mate? Can I ask what it was?

As for Glasgow, nothing surprises me there. LOL

 

In all fairness the two standout incidents took place many years ago when I was on a fortnight residential induction/training course in Perth for an Insurance company. I was 20 and still wet behind the ears and one of three English people on the course. First incident was in the canteen 1st week at lunchtime when I had ordered the Haggis as I had never had it before. I got told in no uncertain terms by a couple of lads from Dundee that haggis "wasnt food for the likes of the English" with a few expletives thrown in. The next day I got jostled in the queue by the same two and had the tray knocked out of my hand and the food ended up on the floor. The last night of the course quite a few of us went for a night out and the two were joined by three or four others a bit older (mid 20s ) all the worse for drink and pinned a couple of us to the wall and threatened us until a few other Scots lads stepped in and calmed things down. Iad a bit of an experience several years ago on Sauciehall street when I was working at the SECC and got confronted by a couple of drunks when they heard the accent but that didn't come to anything as I talked my way out of it. Once in Dundee (which I did find a bit rough) I got ignored by the barman in a pub when it wasn't exactly busy as he carried on talking to his regulars at the other end of the bar and ignored me trying to get a drink for me and a colleague. They kept looking across at me and muttering things about the English and we ended up leaving and going somewhere else.

Overall the worst experience was in a Glasgow taxi for a totally different reason. The driver was a friendly chatty Glaswegian, with a really strong accent, speaking with his back to me and through a glass panel only partly open. However, with me having partial loss of hearing I couldnt understand/hear a word he was saying. I must have come across as a right ar*e !! Cost me a big tip that 'cos I felt really guilty about it.

You are right though, The overwhelming majority are great and far better than miserable Londoners who look at you as if you are a mental defective if you try to start up a conversation. (and that is coming from someone born in London.)

 

Wow! Really sorry for the treatment you received in the pub. Wonder where it was? Difficult to say anything at times especially when you are on your own in a strange place. I agree Dundee perhaps to an outsider could appear rough. But TBH most places have their rough places. Couple of years ago I was in Tarn drinking with Sparky. Can't remember the pub (back of Brammers) but 1st pint and a group of Stone Island dressed young lads were getting a bit noisy. Sparky suggested we leave. I was unaware but Sparky thought they might me up for a wee bit of trouble.

As for your run in with louts in the dinner queue. I hope you left them wearing your dinner.

Glasgow? You never know what to do. Even me if I was to wear my DUFC coat perhaps someone, possibly a Rangers fan might take exception to it and me as there has been a bit of bad blood between the clubs lately. At the end of the day there are arseholes in every city.

 

Trouble can happen in the most unexpected circumstances, anywhere. My example was a U2 concert at Celtic Park, me, unknowingly wearing a Hearts Of Midlothian Kagool which I bought at a car boot somewhere for a £1 & a group of Celtic supporters wanting to fight me all way through the concert! Mad.

 

Crazy. But last year at Hampden at a Take That or some other Boy Band concert police had to be called to attend to fighting by young girls and women.
LOL You couldna make it up.

 

Do you remember him interviewed outside the town hall?

'It's immigration for me. Simple as that. Not bothered about the economy. I'm not that fussed about European immigrants either, it's all these muslims'

Of the 68% in barnsley (I'm from donny, very similar result here too), some will have made an informed and educated decision. Some, though I doubt too many.

Most I fear will be like the gentleman referenced above, or perhaps gullibly thought the nhs would actually the promised billions, or any of the other ***** the likes of farage and Johnson spurted knowing full well it was cobblers.

I'd wager a good majority of the leave voters did not realise any of the potential consequences or costs, nor that most of the perceived benefits would not happen and could never have.

Democracy eh, win by fooling the electorate. A leave campaign based on lies, and a remain campaign that barely existed - based on misplaced faith they would win regardless.

I think it's a huge, grave mistake. Communities around barnsley, donny, Rotherham have had development and assistance on the back of eu projects. Yet those are the communities with the biggest leave votes locally and amongst the largest nationally. It's like turkeys voting for Christmas in my eyes.

Time will tell but unless you're stinking rich, or middle aged to pension age with little to no mortgage, plus have significant savings behind you and little interest in whether the job market flourishes or not, I can see absolutely no reason to think this will be anything but disastrous.

I have heard no argument in support of brexit from anyone that either doesn't fit the above demographic or, to be blunt, was intellectually challenged.


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That's one of the reasons I am so annoyed at my parents. They are both retired, my sister is on long term sick and could well not work again (and doesn't have a mortgage after an insurance pay out). Apart from the increased cost of living, the only people in the family to be really affected by the results of the Leave decision are myself and my daughter. My job is high paid, but for the next 5 years I'm paying a large mortgage and any changes to my job situation could rapidly make it a personal disaster.

All my dad would talk about was the problems with muslims and other "illegal" immigrants working yet claiming benefits and how H&S legislation is holding companies back. Straight out of the Daily Mail and wouldn't listen to facts or reason.

 

It's not food for the likes of anyone.

 

Your best post on this site

 

He left me a link to a video of Jean Claude Junker pissed as a fart during the European Summit in Riga.

 

Perversely, I like Haggis (must be the fact that my great great grandfather was Scottish) Then again I was once told by somebody that they had seen what went into Albert Hurst pork pies and it put them off for life and I loved those too !

 

Haggis is lovely. Along with the tatties and neep. (potatoes and turnip). I don't care what's in it. I just love the taste.

 

He's pissed most of the time, he's an alcoholic, yet he's still in a job, and the Remoaners' hero!

 

There were lies and mistruths told by both sides, it's just that the dishonesty by the remain campaign is conveniently forgotten about.

The remain supporters often proclaim the 'money to the NHS' as the mistruth that all leavers fell for (those that didn't just vote on grounds of bigotry of course) yet this just isn't the case. It is just a convenient stick to browbeat leavers with.

To take a standpoint that remainers were too clever to believe the lies whereas the leavers were all fooled because they're poorly educated, naive bigots is not only arrogant in the extreme but also insulting and incorrect.