Never Forgive Never Forget

Debt, not deficit. Sorry, I'm not being picky it's just that all politicians use cutting the deficit as a banner when it means just not using the credit card as much as the previous year.

 

Here's where I struggle.
The tories policies are self fulfilling and do very little for the average working family directly. There is obviously still ingrained hatred towards them due to past events, Hillsboro, orgreave, falklands war, wapping etc.
The problem is that instead of that pushing me towards a labour vote, I hate labour only slightly less because of their ineptitude and unrealistic ways and their hell bent attitude to try and bankrupt the country.
Obviously none of the other parties can even be taken seriously so it leaves me with a dilemma.
1. Vote for someone I dislike, don't trust, don't have my interest at heart and are too weak or unwilling to tackle tough issues(tories or labour)
2. Don't vote, which doesn't sit right with me when other people have fought for my right to do so.

An irony to the current situation we're in is that thatchers agenda with the heavy industries that we all despise are probably the tactics needed to smarten the energy companies and banks up.
If they were serious about voting reform they should have a none of the above box.

 

That covers the "never forget" but what about the "never forgive"??

Some (often the same) people on here talk about how the British/Empire enlaved people, how we brutally subjugated the Irish, how the IRA blew people up, how the Crusaders kille and sacked Jerusalem... Setb vs Muslim, Arab vs Jew.... Catholic vs Protestant.....Countless atrocities throughout the centuries.
Jimmy Cricket as a socialist often takes the moral high ground on here particularly whenever migration and Brexit are discussed and yet if we "never forgive" which many religions, particularly Christianity preach would (and does) result in endless conflict and predjuidce and hatred being passed down from generation to generation.
" Never forget " YES but Forgoiveness must eventually happen even if it is a bitter pill to swallow.

 

Forgiveness can happen when those involved are brought to justice after an inquiry. Just like Hillsborough. The healing can be done then. Not before. Pretty simple isn't it.

And I'm not a Socialist. If I followed any political doctrine it would be anarchism.

 

Is it a "bad manifesto" though or one that reflects the financial state of the country ? I think the UK population is lving denial in that we have had decades of low productivity, hgh wages, bad management, and basically paying ourselves as a nation far, far mre than we should have.
Only people living in the parallel bubble that is this BB would belive that the Labour Manifesto is remotely possible without increasing the deficit and debt significantly as well as much higher taxation. They seem to be sepnding the same money more than once and making unrealistic assumptions. . Incidentally one or two on here seem to have difficiculty distinguishing between the budget deficit and the National debt.

No, I do not like the Tory manifesto and I cannot recall an election where I am so diesnchanted with any of the choices. However, whilst Labour ticks many boxes I simply don't believe they can deliver on their promises.

 

Completely. Agree

 

Not simple... You are talking retribution not forgiveness. True forgiveness comes when you accept that wrong has been done and move on without seeking revenge. In most of those examples I gave. how would you get justice when the perpetrators are long since dead? Catholic kids and Protestant kids, Jews and Chrsitains, Shia and Sunni, still fight in the streets because they were brought up to hate one another because of previous injustices that went unpunished. and the hatred passes from generation to generation. I understand the bitterness of victims of Orgreave, Hillsbro and other places when the World believed they were guilty party and the real criminals were the Establishment but, the truth is out and most people now recognise and understand what went on. History will now record the actions of people like Tebbitt and the late Leon Brittan and peple will judge them on that. It will no longer mark the miners down as a rabble or rioters as the Government and Police, at the time, made them out to be.
People who were born after the pits closed calling other youths 'scabs' is another example of 'indoctrination by people who won't let it go or forgive. Hatred damages the victim as much as the perpetrator. As someone said... look forward not back. but never forget. Not forgiving risks repeating teh same mistakes.

 

That Stevie Mallan though, eh?

 

Forgiveness can only start after justice as been served. When anyone still alive has been punished (via the correct legal process) for any crimes they may have been involved with. To use the modern phrase then closure can begin. Until then it won't. Very simple. History can judge but if a people who committed crimes are still alive so can courts. Oral history isn't worth the paper it isn't written on. History books need to record Thatcher's crimes.

Like Hillsborough closure has not started though is not complete. Scousers Never Buy the Sun as the song goes.

 

So on the one hand you despise the Government of the day and the police for breaking the law but you talk of veering towards anarchy (I am assuming that was a joke??) in which case there would be no system wherey people could be brought to justice.

Anarchy: 'A state of disorder due to absence or non-recognition of authority or other controlling systems'.

 

A common misunderstanding of anarchy from those who know little about it. This forum is not the stage for a lengthy debate about it. A decent starting point is Hannah Arendt if you have any real interest.

 

Try telling that to some of the survivors if Hillsborough

 

"A common misunderstanding" apparently shared by the OED and most other references to it....

Have you heard of Dunning-Kruger by any chance?

 

If a known surviving Nazi war criminal popped up in South America - even though there were nearly 100 now, they would be arrested and tried for their crimes. Their punishment would be lesser than those who were arrested immediately after the war due to their diminished life expectancy, but they would expect to die in jail. The same with a murderer. If they found someone now for a murder in the 50s, 60s, or 70s you would expect them to face punishment just the same as a murderer from this week. Rape and child abuse cases are pursued after 20-30 years as we've seen with Saville, Glitter and Harris.

If someone committed a serious crime, our expectation is that the government would pursue their arrest and conviction for those crimes. Is there a line where you can get away with a "lesser" crime after a few years? Do we pursue murder and rape, but not theft or assault? Should a government minister or high-ranking police officer that committed a criminal act (assault, perjury, perverting the course of justice, etc) get away with it forever because they were in a position to cover-up their illegal actions in the past?

 

As I said not the arena for me to tackle your inbuilt prejudices. If you have any interest there are plenty of sources for you to explore.

Yes I have read the analysis of Keith Hill's managerial style. It's interesting and reminds me of the career of JEAN Yes m'voto.

 

Exactly.

 

At this moment in time, I honestly believe that the after-effects of Brexit on the UK economy and employment will be so disastrous that whoever gets in will be lucky to achieve any of their aims without the country collapsing under the national debt. We have had near enough a year, and we still do not know who is negotiating for our side (Barnier was appointed by the EU in July/August last year), the goals of our negotiators and how we can avoid losing a *lot* of jobs due to the breaking in the logistical supply chain, loss of free movement *into* the EU for our services, the addition of tariffs on imports and exports and the loss of NTBs.

With a hard Brexit, the predictions are ~10-15% of GDP, which would account for somewhere in the region of 3-4 million full-time jobs across the country. A "No-deal" Brexit as espoused by May would be worse. I suspect many of these will be replaced by ZHCs leaving the country in major trouble by the time of the next General Election.

 

Lad likes a crack bit looks

 

Tekky I was at Orgreaves and I can never forget what happened there and I can never forgive,