David Duckienfield.

I read both your posts .. both had nothing to do with the subject Mr wordsmith.

 

Yes they did. I replied to Marlon, who had raised the subject of culpability for the fences. Try to keep up.

I never once blamed the families or any one of the poor souls who died, you made that up in your head. I think the families have been exemplary and dignified for years and deserve for the truth to come out. Don't try to paint me as someone else.

I'd question your motives and whether this is just a way for you to attack the establishment that you so demonstrably despise. Don't try to make out I have said anything that I haven't.

 

I agree with you. 80's football was blighted by morons. We still have far too many that claim to support us to this day who fall into that category.
They are as you say pond life.

The safety of everyone at the match is paramount & that is the issue here. There were obviously multiple reasons why people died, but the police cover up is criminal in itself. Police still are way too heavy handed to this day though. If you go to the match, they treat you like something they have scraped off their shoe. I've seen some pretty bad stuff from SYP over the years, including an innocent fan being charged for taking out a horse's eye, when actually it was an accident next to some railings, when the police officer lost control of the horse, a distance away from any supporters.
Corruption happens in all areas & the police are no exception. When they commit a crime they need to answer for it.

 

So you don't think the Liverpool fans were to blame .. but the authorities?

 

It’s going to be in Preston.

 

I know .. if he was let off in Sheff court it would look a bit dodgy ...
Still, shame it's just him

 

I can't argue with any of this JP. I am a big supporter of the police, I think they do an incredibly difficult job which is often made even more difficult by their superior officers. Having said that they do themselves no favours at times - I've been to games where I've been kettled and treated like a hooligan when it was clear that we were not even remotely looking for trouble.

They could definitely improve on match days. I'm sure they would win friends and influence more people if they weren't so heavy handed with decent fans.

They can treat the morons who go looking for trouble as badly as they want to for all I care.

And you're right about corruption. There is good and bad in every element of society; the police are no exception.

Duckenfield must answer for the decisions that day and the aftermath when statements were changed and cover ups were ordered (allegedly). If found guilty he must be punished in the same way that anyone else would be.

 

I think the point is life (& death) is not binary. There are often multiple reasons why things happen. The Grenfell tragedy is another example.
The cladding was obviously a criminally bad decision, but also policy on evacuating a building & previous false fire alarms may have stopped people evacuating the building.

Duckenfield is being charged for his part of it. If he is guilty, I hope they throw away the keys. Likewise, he has a chance to clear his name.
The families of the 96 deserve the law & all our respect, whatever.

 

I think the decisions made on the day were the primary reasons for the tragedy. I think the decision to open the gate was the reason the fans died but standing in the shoes of a 1980's senior police officer I can understand why he made that decision at the time and faced with the circumstances at the time.

If, as is alleged, he lied and ordered statements to be changed and presided over a cover up and he is found guilty then he deserves to sent to prison for a very long time. Probably the rest of his life. If he has lied to protect himself then the law should make an example of him because that kind of behaviour is unforgivable.

 

The impression I've always had is that Duckenfield was promoted above his capabilities with little or no experience of operational football matters , it was said that at previous semi-finals after a previous near miss (think Spurs fans were involved) the fans were filtered into the Leppings Lane turnstiles via barriers, they weren't there on the day of the tragedy . I've always wandered what the other Senior Officers on duty who were experienced were doing, you get the feeling they left Duckenfield to his own devices and it went tragically wrong.

 

Just a little thought for people: do you condemn a man for his actions, or for the consequences (foreseen or unforeseen) of them?

 

Or for covering them up ?

 

To some degree both.

If you are an airline pilot, a surgeon, or a police chief you have people's lives at stake.
If your actions lead to 96 people dying, I think they deserve their day in court.
Duckenfield might be cleared.

 

It's often said that the cover-up is worse than the offence - especially in political situations. Not so here - if DD was truly responsible for the loss of 95 lives, that and only that would be the issue. So the question stands.

 

That is what he is being tried for. If he tried to cover up the facts (which seems to have been established), is that not an admission of guilt in itself?
I'm not saying "send him down". I'm saying, "what are the facts". Day in court for DD.

 

It took ny on 3 decades for the truth to come out the likes of Duckenfield and to'ther sumbags that have been charged were protected by right wing governments and that includes Tory Blair and the right wing press especially the Sun who for me should be charged as well for the bullshyte they printed after the event.
And it's still happening today with the Orgreave's cover up.

 

So he is already guilty then?

 

No owd love read it again I said charged, ffs you'll get a bloke hung.

 

The late Lord Denning said if we'd have kept hanging we wouldn't have had all these miscarriages of justice!

 

Well ******* said. Every single football fan who behaved disgracefully on terraces prior to the Hillsborough disaster contributed to 96 deaths and that includes some who post on here. They have blood on their hands.

Regardless of what an inquest which was in my opinion biased and asked leading questions said here are a few facts.

Fact 1. Hooligans behaviour in the past led to pens being erected.
Fact 2. Hooligans behaviour in the past led to the mentality and thinking of the police and so influenced decision making on the day.
Fact 3. Fans turning up without tickets, regardless of whether it was 1 fan or 10,000 fans, contributed to the crush outside the gate and therefore contributed to the decision to open the gates. It is not an opinion, it is simple physics.
Fact 4. The layout of the ground contributed to the disaster.
Fact 5. The ultimate responsibility lies with SYP who made the bad call in good faith to open the gates.
Fact 6. The attempt at covering up their mistakes was and is disgraceful