So out means remain

So what you're saying in your conclusion is...it was never going to end well?

 

Same here. I voted remain but I wasn't quite sure why. I'm not uneducated, I think I was ill educated in respect of the ramification of the decision as a result of the propaganda from both sides of the debate... ha debate err more of a childish tit for tat squabble.

 

The use of the word uneducated is a bit much as the connotations are that the electorate were all completely uneducated. In some cases maybe true, but it was lack of education in the field on which we were voting that was, I believe, trying to be highlighted.

Bit of a mouthful, but more accurate to say ‘insufficiently educated on what leaving the eu might look like and what it will mean to make an informed decision, so should not have been put to a referendum’.

We still don’t really know, but we know a hell of a lot more than we did.

It still shouldn’t be a referendum really, but the only way to stop this circus is for the ‘will of the people’ to be shown to have changed. Or to be shown/clarified as to what leave is required if it hasn’t changed. The vote didn’t give any scope to show what leave meant; a large majority of those who voted out will not want the leave being mooted, but we can’t conclude that without asking in a fresh vote.

The problem being there will either not be another vote on it, or there will be and a new media shitstorm telling lies that will be swallowed and skew the result again. We could end up with overturning the decision based on more lies.

What an absolute, disastrous mess. There’s little we can do to actually sort it out either.

To me, given what is on the table, the best option is to back out and remain; but even that would likely mean some concessions to the eu which wouldn’t have been needed had we never chucked the toys out of the pram in the first place.

There’s leave voters saying they’d sooner stay in than leave on the proposed terms. Or a deal free exit, which would be catastrophic. Remainers demanding a fresh referendum.

Who actually likes the deal negotiated and who does it benefit? To me it serves only the eu and to keep the current prime minister in power. Nobody in the general population of the U.K. gets any current or future benefit at all. It’s leaving the eu in name but still having to pay in and abide by a lot of the rules, without having the scope to contribute to making the rules anymore. Downright ridiculous.

 

Not strictly true. Without UK net contribution the EU budget is screwed, particularly France who as the new 2nd highest net contributor would have to make up the deficit and their debt to GDP ratio is worse than the UK. EU stand to lose a lot so hardly hold "all the cards". Quite a few remainers have never really bothered to investigate the vulnerability of the EU, choosing to believe all is rosy over the Channel and the UK Brexit has absolutely no impact for them.

 

So either they hold all the cards and have no reason to give us a good deal.

Or they’re desperate for the U.K. to stay in the eu so can’t afford to offer a good deal.

Investigate the vulnerability all you like, there is no conclusion that will lead to the higher echelons of the eu thinking letting the U.K. leave and dictate it’s own terms is a viable idea.

 

I find it incredible this notion that the EU is undemocratic and opaque. Just because our media paints in it a particular way and doesn't publish any of its reams of documentation.

There was a huge difference immediately after May came out suggesting a cabinet had agreed an exit deal. 90 seconds of waffle, No detail or summary. Michel Barnier spoke at length, with the document in front of him and openly recited articles and appendices. 100% transparency. You could say May had a long day and wanted it to be over. So the next day in her 3 hour grilling in the Commons where she started with a statement, she had perfect opportunity to give detail and walk parliament through the text, why it was negotiated and what implications and options were.

instead we had more waffle, soundbites and distraction, followed by about 3 hours of non answers to many reasonable questions.

The difference to me is stark. That the EU have very detailed debate and discussion and publish them fully for full transparency. In the UK, we don't. Ever.

It seems to boil down to profound deep prejudices inherent in large percentages of this country where we just don't play nicely with other children. Especial foreign children. We're an island. Some want us literally to be that for ever more.

 

To the British people. Reverse things. Let's say you were the EU. A member state wants to leave. Would you break all of your rules and give them advantages for leaving, compared to being in your membership? The answer is quite obvious, no?

 

And at the other end of the spectrum we have a Shadow Education Secretary who left school at 16, pregnant with no qualifications whatsoever, (albeit she subsequently went to FE college to study 'care' and 'sign language').
Whilst she may well be intelligent and worldy wise. her meteoric rise has come, basically through being active in the trade Trade Union movement (again, a case of WHO you know rather than WHAT you know.) I am not sure her educational background or career experience in any way qualifies here to dictate policy to professionals and academics in the Education sector.

So in reality, public school affiliations are little different to trade union affiliations when it comes to getting a seat at the high table.
.

 

I don't actually disgree with that. The EU was never going to make it easy, or possible, for a laissez fare, status quo withdrawal. I have always maintained my choice to vote leave never resulted from an idea that we would be leaving for 'sunny upland pastures' and accepted that there would be short to medium term problems and not all of them minor. I also believe though these problems are NOT insurmountable, and, on balance, (and the key word 'balance)', my view is that leaving what the EU will become in the future (if indeed it has a future which some doubt given it's mounting problems), means the many advantages of current membership are outweighed by the disadvantages.
I know many, including yourself disagree, but that is just my considered view.

 

If it was say Latvia leaving do you think the eu would have begged and hope to God they stay? Personally I don't think so, you go anywhere on the continent and the not many people like us, but yet Brussels apoear to really really want us to stay a part of the state, why is this? IMO it's they like our £££££££££

 

Absolutely fair enough.

 

Is that any better, or worse, than a succession of Education secretaries that only went to a private boarding school, got a place in a top university (not necessarily on merit) and have no experience of anything outside of Eton or Harrow?

 

We're a decent net contributor yes. But we get vast amounts of tariff free trade with it, and other countries its signed agreements with, and there have been many improvements from data, security, banning of toxins and collaborative research. There are probably many things I don't know, and many things that aren't ideal either.

But they have certainly not begged us to stay. They think we're doing something very stupid, which I agree with them about!

And if it was Latvia, and i'd very much recommend visting Riga if you haven't yet, I'd expect they would act in the same dignified respectful manner that they have done during this lengthy complicated process.

 

There’s not many that would disagree with that - but just because that appears to be true, doesn’t mean we should just chalk fu.ck on it and leave if it means we will actually suffer because of it.

There’s plenty of folk died due to their principles or pride. We’d be leaving just because we can. Nose and face situation.

My opinion is that the eu is hugely flawed but that we are much better in it where the beast can in part be controlled, than out of it but subject to its regulations.

I’d have stayed anyway - I’ve been clear on that - but in the current circumstances I don’t see a viable option to walk away at all.

 

I find myself agreeing with you a lot over the last couple of days. Which I hate.

 

Except for the Czech Republic and Slovakia (peacefully), and the former Yugoslavia (not so peacefully). All of whom have separated from a union of countries within recent memory (and are now within the EU)

There are also plenty of experts in negotiating trade deals, and every other aspect of modern integrated international business and life. Unfortunately, as we finding out these are all on the EU side as we outsourced competency for this over the last 40 years. Even many of the UK-born experts in the field are working for the EU.

 

Lol, I know it's surreal isn't it?

 

I'm sure we can put a stop to it tomorrow night.