So out means remain

I flippin hope not. I'm hoping we play that well and win four nil so we've got nothing to fall out about!

 

I can't comment on how individual countries have conducted themselves I simply do not know, but they do come under the eu umbrella, as far as visiting Riga I don't want or wish to visit, saying that I hear the women are well fit in those countries

 

That's a shame you don't want to visit a beautiful country with a different culture, beautiful architecture, fabulous seasonal good value food and drink, UNESCO buildings, histories of both wealth and war, excellent connectivity and technology while having super helpful people who are proud of their country but don't want to interfere.

But then I probably shouldn't be surprised that some people don't want to explore or understand other countries.

 

I have many family members and friends who visit many historic cities and countries, as much as it doesn't really appeal to me I totally get the interest, I would however like to visit the concentration camp at auswvich ( forgive my spelling) many who have been said it was an amazing but sad experience, that is on my bucket list

 

Auschwitz is undoubtedly the most grim place I've ever visited. Words can't do it justice to be honest and I think it should be a mandatory visit for every human being. Now more than ever. Riga and Tallinn have similar, maybe even more desperate histories though. They were victimised by Russia, then had the Germans continue the horrors.... then their saviours, the Russians again... hunted down any form of free speech and ruthlessly murdered and tortured people.

With these atrocities so recent and real in many parts of Europe, its perhaps unsurprising they see unity and togetherness as something to try and maintain. Maybe if we'd been invaded and suffered some of these unimaginable things, we might have a different mindset.

 

Can't disagree with that at all, its quite hard to believe ( for me anyway) that these events happened less than eighty years ago, the torture and pain what they went through was horrific, having 4 kids myself and seeing the images of desperate mothers and kids is truly heartbreaking, I agree 100% about it should be mandatory to visit.

 

It's crazy how widespread it was too. I've been in various "museums" relating to the wars in places like Budapest, Krakow (Auschwitz), Tallinn, Riga, Berlin and probably others too. I suppose the one thing we should be thankful for if WW3 happens in our lifetimes. It should be over very very quickly given the technology now in play, if anyone was crazy enough to use it. The one saving grace, the cruelty of the past may be less common.

 

I have had this very argument before on other forums. My personal opinion is that the reason that so many of the older generation are comparatively so against European integration is they (and their parents) suffered significantly less (as a generation) than their equivalents in Europe. In the entire duration of WWII, Britain (including colonies) lost 384,000 men in battle and another 68,000 civilians - roughly 1% of the population. By comparison, more died *just* in the Battles of France (1940), Narva (1944), Moscow (1941-42), Stalingrad (92-43), Budapest (45) and Berlin (45) - in the case of Berlin within a fortnight - and that doesn't count the Soviet troops taking their "revenge" on any German female they could find as they fought through the country (an estimated 200,000 "Russian" babies were born in Germany in 1946).

Several countries lost over 10% of their 1939 population - including Poland (17%), Lithuania (14%), Latvia (12%) Greece (up to 11%) and Yugoslavia (up to 11%)

That doesn't count the concentration camps (a British export and IIRC we were the last European country to use them in Kenya in 1955 under a Churchill government) and other issues from that period - or WWI which devastated large parts of France and Belgium.

 

A few celebratory pints hopefully.

 

Alternatively there is more thirst for integration on the continent because they've been convinced by those driving it that without it they'd be at each other's throats - whilst the British looking from (relative) distance have no such appetite.

I get what you're saying but to diminish the suffering of the British through WW2 is a bit off. We can appreciate the horrors forced on occupied Europe without denigrating the effects at home.

 

Do you think them wanting us to stay is good or bad for our ability to negotiate a good deal?

 

The problem is, apart from the soldiers that were there (and many that where didn't talk about their experiences), it is remote. Knowing six million Jews were killed in concentration camps, and millions more in battle, starvation, disease, etc, hold as much relevancy for the population as 3 million Indians dying of starvation in 1941 or the victims of the recent earthquake in Indonesia. Unless you experience it or see it for yourself you will never feel the same as those who experienced it first hand. Think about Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge - they killed millions, but it is abstract to most of us. Same with Rwanda, or Congo, Yemen, Isis, Iraq, etc, etc.

Go to Berlin, and visit the Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial Church (on Kurfurstendamm) . It is in one of the busiest parts of the city and a very vivid reminder of war. Go to Belgium or Northern France and you have the memorials to the WWI dead. Go to Poland and you have Auschwitz and other concentration camps kept as memorials. It is the same in many parts of Europe with it being a part of the psyche of the generations born since then. We don't have the equivalent in the UK. There is no big memorial in London for the blitz that is a major tourist attraction (there is one in Wapping but I had to look it up). There is the cenotaph, but not many go except on November 11th. The others, like the Churchill War Rooms, celebrate victory, but don't commemorate the suffering that people went through.

 

The vast Imperial War Museum near Waterloo is much grittier. I've only explored a tiny part to date, but the part I did was far from triumphalist. That was just the WW1 part, but showed the weaponry, footage of people wading through vast pools and muddied fields, highlighting those that drowned. recreating trenches to give an insight to what the fighting may have been like. Even film footage of people recreating illness from shock.

But agree how we differ from continental Europe, and we're lucky because of it, being an island saved us from the worst atrocities that war brought. We may have lost lives in battle and from bombing, but we didn't feel the horrors of torture and persecution from occupation and latterly the iron curtain.

 

There have been some good, bad and very indifferent posts about brexit on here depending on a range of experiences, political views, personal and social angles and certain financial standpoints. My own view is that a fit Izzy and hedges with more game time will be the extra oomph we need in the latter part of the season to gain promotion.

 

You’re relying on prop

you’re relying on propaganda put forward by MPs of both sides which you say was bad information, but you think we should put the country in their hand , numpty

 

Watched a documentary other night. Bit conspiracy theory driven however the ethos was that the EU in its curreng guise harks back to the late 30s/early 40s as a back up plan for german domination and the single state if/when hitlers dreams went tits up.

One of the first power brokers if i recall correctly was a bloke linked to the party its self...

 

Yep, that's what Hitler's real dream was. Intensive working hours legislation and the protection of regional cheese makers.

 

Iirc the founders of adidas and aldi were party members and ibm were involved in the records for the camps.

 

As soon as I realised that both halves would fight to disrupt the other, despite it being detrimental to the country overall. Yes.