So out means remain

I'm also a middle aged (probably just!) white male, so happy to make the comment, despite not fitting the profile, and glad you know where I'm coming from. I'm sure some won't. And certainly know how you feel. Was at the inlaws in kent at the w/e and politics just isn't anything that can be discussed anymore. Ironic that they have gotten a little better in recent times, but right wing tory/ukip is certainly their comfort zone.

 

To be fair, I start many a sentence with "And". Though traditionally frowned upon and discouraged, it has been more encouraged in more recent times to add more of a punch at the start of a sentence.

 

Rosco's reply is typical of the higher moral ground stance of many remainers,the amount of time people like him start pulling people up on their grammer is pathetic at best,just because somebodys grammer is not up to A level standard does not make their point any less relevant.

 

If it is a version of project fear, then it's been brought about at best by some very incautious use of language, for both Juncker and Ms Von der Leyen to say publically that those troops are there to be used inside EU Member States as well as out, is either a statement of fact, or if not fact a misapprehension of the intent.
For one to say it could just be an error, for both to say it using the same words suggests that they are speaking from agreed policy....not forgetting of course that these are not junior ministers or invisible 'sources' that could be used to whip up scare stories, they are the people at the most senior level of The EU Army project.

 

Previously we were one of the big clubs - we were Real Madrid or Manchester City, we had clout.

Once we come out of the EU we will be Barnsley.

When we agreed trade terms in the past we did it on terms of strength, a massive trading block, massive GDP, massive population - it was on our terms. Free trade deals are not free, there is give and take, the EU protects what it thinks is important, so to protect it's cheese makers it has high tariffs on cheese and imported cheese has to conform to our regulations.

Once we are out, we have less power to enforce what we want. The US will tell us what to do, China will tell us what to do, India will increasingly tell us what to do etc etc etc all down the line.

 

I'm not being obtuse here, but I really don't see the problem at all. So what if there is a collaborative army of Europeans? And where would they an army be, if not in a member state? Is it much different to an "english" govt having nuclear submarines out of sight and mind in Scotland?

I'm sure it won't be long before someone from the extreme right infers an EU army is purely being designed to attack us with!

 

Ahem... you mean grammar, of course ;-)

Apologies... I just couldn't resist!

 

You're missing the point.

Everyone complains of so called bureaucracy, everyone has a moan about politicians.

What I meant was, you never get us saying those things, you never get our media saying those things. It's a perception by some that the EU just hates us, that the EU makes laws created by other countries and forces them on us. But the reality is, we all get a say, we all have input and we all propose ideas. Then, if we don't like the ideas, each country has a veto. The veto is only used as a last option as we prefer to bargain, we take one law if we can get one of our ideas through. Give and take.

 

I don't think that really is how it works in practise....for instance Canada, Australia and New Zealand are all much smaller economies, smaller populations etc than ourselves...and nobody tells them what to do...as you say it's a give and take, but not an imposition.

 

You're missing the point... again.

My point was "this is why you don't ask a Brexiteer to negotiate anything, because if you did the resulting document would be full of mistakes."

 

scare tactics rosco,

btw,i'm all for a trading block just not a political union..had the eec remained just that then we would never have had a referendum

the 1975 vote was for a trading block not a political union,many politicians were shouted down for suggesting a political superstate was in the pipeline,

 

claptrap,your point was to discredit his point based on his poor grammar(thanks mr love child ;-) )

 

It is to some extent an imposition and you'll find that they do kowtow to us to get their products into the EU.

Yes, there is give and take but less give from the EU, it's a big player.

If you're a small producer and Tesco say's it will put your products on it's shelves you will definitely go with their suggested price, their ideas on special offers and their ideas on tie-in promotions.

 

Also - "somebody's"

Also, spacing after commas would be appreciated for ease of reading.

 

Saying that something is a scare tactic doesn't stop it being a reality.

 

No doubt when I say that you are wrong, you'll claim I meant something else.

However, I made very clear exactly what I meant.

 

The point is that both Juncker and Von der Leyen haven't stated that those forces would somehow be shared around and simply based wherever seems suitable, they have unequivocally stated that they can be used as a military force within a Member State.....they are suggesting that forces controlled by Brussels can intervene within the borders of a Sovereign State...in the absence of qualifications that is quite a threat...or at the very least potential threat.

 

When did I start talking of superstates and political unions?

You are conflating issues with another poster I think.

 

I respect lots of what you say, and as we've said before, we're on very different stances in terms of Europe. This just feels like a giant fear based reach without anything other than 2 comments which use similar language.

Those armies would have to be manned from somewhere. They would have to be funded somehow, and there would have to be numerous agreements to allow and control their movements. You could argue 20 years from now if another Hitler came along and was able to usurp the EUs figureheads, that it could be a risk. But an international army would be made up of internationals, and with the UN and sovereign leaders making individual choices, I can't see how such a move would be of significance to anyone.

Farages want by pushing the EU army story is that the Uk would have to fund it all, and if push came to shove, I'm sure he wouldn't be avers suggesting it would be used against us. As I say, I'm not being obtuse, but an EU army is least of my concerns amid the whole goings off at present.

 

aye alright rosco,clear in your own head maybe ;-)

my point was to illustrate that i was prepared to be a member of a trading block not a eu political union,the very same union that was being denied 40 years ago,the likes of Tony Benn were ridiculed and accused of using scare tactics when they stated that it was europes intention to create a political superstate..

spot on as the predictions that were branded scare tactics are now happening before our very eyes...next up eu army,again ridiculed and likened to seeing elvis or the moon landing being fake..