o/t Any ex-miners who could help me with a query about the differences between Yorks and Notts?

I wonder if any of the ex-miners or people with knowledge about mining could help me with this as some members of the bbs have kindly done before.


I’m researching the 84-5 strike at the moment and I came across a couple of testimonies in which people mention that miners in Yorkshire had it tougher ‘geologically speaking’ than those in Notts as one of the reasons that they fought harder in the strike and had far fewer scabs. Does anyone know if there is anything in that? I’m aware that different coal seams had different grades, qualities and uses, but I wondered if there was anything geologically that made it tougher to extract coal in say the Dearne Valley area to Notts?

Is there any evidence for this or is it anecdotal/ apocryphal?


In connection to this, why was it that Notts miners had better working conditions in general than in Yorkshire? Was this due to union activity and if so, why were their terms of employment / salaries/ pits better?


Many thanks in advance for anyone who can help with this or point me in a fruitful direction.

 

I’ve not heard any of this tbh but the only logical conclusion I can come up with is the same reason as Barnsley and Donny .
Barnsley is a lot older coalfield and the thickest seams were worked out long ago eg the Barnsley Bed seam and Beamshaw seam which were really thick seams .
These seams were still in existence in Donny so I would expect similar in notts .
The further east the thicker the seams I was told.
The seam I worked in was less than four foot high and taking into account the 6 inch band of coal in the roof we had to leave for safety and the thickness of the supports resulted in less than 3 foot high working conditions .

 

Thanks for that, Marlon, that's a really interesting suggestion which I'm going to look into.

 

Working in a three foot seam, that must have been so bloody tough I can't imagine!

 

This article mentions 'thick straight seams' in Notts which backs up your idea:

https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2017-07-26/miners-strike-why-did-notts-scab

 

factor in the fact that Yorkshire miners were better men and better miners than their weaker Nottingham counterparts.

 

Come to think of it when we were allowed (which was very rare indeed) to talk to notts miners on the picket line we were told times many that the notts miners had been told unofficially that once the strike had ended that they were to be looked after .
Tbf that was the case under Thatcher but the Tories had a plan and left mist of notts while last .
But Scargill told them in a plea to join the strike that they would come for notts after they’d decimated the rest .
Unfortunately for them Scargill was right but I doubt even he realised the scale of closures .
Miners in general were moderate and most disputes were local rather than national .
Compared to the rail industry and car industry national miners disputes were far and few between in in the last century it were 1926,1972,1974 and 84/85. Which compared to other industries is quite rare tbh . In fact it was in the 72 strike that miners experiencing solidarity from other unions realised how far down the cost of living ladder they were as mining paid poor wages to then .
That’s is why the 74 strike took place.
84/85 wasn’t about money it was for the existence for the industry which. We lost and the rest is history

 

Marlon my friend, I have to add a point to your last sentence. It wasn't just the industry they were fighting for it was their communities aswell.

 

Spirit Ditch I worked in the coal mines, as regarding seams they varied in size from pit to pit eg, take the Park Gate seam it could be 4 foot 6 at Grimey and 3 foot 6 at Dodworth as the Great Yorkshire fault run through Barnsley best coal for burning on a open fire came out of the Silkstone 4 foot. Very little ash but tha wanted a new fire grate every 6 months . I would not say the Notts miners had it any easier than the Yorkshire miners as no matter what size the face was it was the conditions you worked under I worked on 1 face that kept flooding nar that was bad.
Regarding strikes when I worked at Redbrook we once had 18 strikes in 19 weeks or sumat like that I was also involved in the 1972, 74 and 84 strikes.

 

Yes thanks for that D138 your quite right it was our communities and are a lot poorer for it .
The working men’s clubs and miners welfare’s provided multiple activities apart from the obvious but we had thriving football clubs and facilities, Liads of leisure activities snooker, pool etc .fishing trips etc lots more I could name . Although there are some still going they are not as abundant as once were and affordable to almost everyone.
There’s a lot more the communities are less well off for with the closing of the mining and related industries with nothing to fill the void .

 

South Derbyshire and Notts coal was a much harder type of coal (tending towards anthracite) while South Yorks coal was a bit more bituminous, also the seams were typically shallower in South Yorkshire than in Notts/Derbys.

 

I know this might be tongue in cheek but this is something I've come across a few times. I'm looking at identity and there is often an assertion that Yorkshire miners were better in the sense of being physically tougher and resilient but also more principled and moral in comparison to say the Notts scab workers. I'm trying to piece together where these ideas came from (without being too biased as a proud Yorkshiremen myself!)

 

That's interesting many thanks mate, especially in terms of common hardships faced by any miner

 

Remember My dad worked at platts common b4 he retired. (Elsecar for me) in 3 ft seams that were difficult to mine. Bonuses were practically none existent. Believe it or not the canteen workers were on better bonuses due to the fact they could choose to take 40% of the colliery average or area average. One of the cases where area average won.

 

Thanks Brush. Would that mean it was physically more demanding to mine the harder coal or would it involve different machinery? Thanks

 

Tbh spirit I think you’d have to look really hard into that because by nature miners are a gypsy type similar to McAlpines fusiliers lol.
But even in Barnsley we had influxes from all over GB and beyond .
In the early days I believe Carlton was welsh speaking and Royston even to this day have a different accent I believe owing to Staffordshire mines migrating as coal owners opened new pits they recruited outside if area as they were small communities .
Kent miners were mostly militant miners exiled from other regions where mine owners refused to employ them.
Darfield in the sixties were a lot of Scottish miners came down as dud Geordies etc . Also in the Cold War loads of Eastern European’s joined our ranks as well as Bevin Boys that stayed after the war . So good luck on that lol

 

Evening spirit ditch and good luck with your studies. You may already be across this but when I was reading my first degree (economics) we looked at something similar. There was a famous study of Luton car workers in the seventies (sorry ive been drunk a lot since the 80s and can't remember the name of it - sure you could find it) they would strike all the time, despite having good conditions and pay. It was largely contra to the received wisdom that militancy and poor working conditions always had a strong correlation

 

Not sure it had a bearing . I can’t remember the no’s that returned to work but The Selby coalfield had strike breakers early doors and was the area where all the big bonuses were earned, mainly due to the huge seams . I will stand to be corrected if anyone remembers better.

 

That's an excellent point, Marlon thanks haha.. I was reading that many of the Notts miners originally migrated down from the north so it's important to not over-simplify these terms. I guess what I'm interested in is why people believed this or what it says about identity in mining towns then and now

 

Thanks Darfield, that sounds a good'un to track down- fascinating stuff.