Brexit End Game.

Unfortunately some people would rather believe the Tory press propaganda on labour ,Corbyn and Immigration than what the Tory Right are up to.
You’ve only to read some of the comments on here to see the the results .
When we fall out of the EU they’ll just go back to blaming the Tories or a labour council.
We have some of the worst workers rights in Europe at the present time with the Tory and New labour resisting EU policies .

 

Our workers rights are significantly worse than Germany and France - but much better than the USA. Guess which those behind Brexit want us to emulate...

 

No sitting Politician should be allowed to talk openly about removing workers rights as an option.

 

Tories have had erosion of workers rights in Manifestos .
Granted they don’t use the words erode but the proposed policies are plain to see.

 

https://www.ier.org.uk/news/7-employment-rights-you-have-lost-under-tory-pm

 

I’m definitely not a Leave voter but I can easily answer what the tories have done for us - NOTHING!

 

Get off the fence.

 

I'm not rich nor am I of limited intellect or thick.
(do you really go through life regarding as anyone with a different opinion to yourself in those terms?)

I voted to leave as I've said before because I feel there is a high risk of the EU becoming a) increasingly nationalistic and b) the threat of Putin's influence on the Eastern countries in the EU.
The EU is changing - since the last election neither the Centre Left nor the Centre Right parties have a majority. Almost 10% of its members are Eurosceptic.
In this discussion about EU membership very little attention is paid to how the EU is made up and how it operates or how it will operate in the future. The Nationalists are breathing down Macron's neck in France - what will happen when Merkel retires (rise of German Nationalism?) - not sure what is happening in Italy

Now Vesp77 I expect some personal abuse which is often the refuge of the intellectually challenged.

 

More nationalistic than Farage ??

 

Personal abuse? I don't stoop to such levels.

Have a nice day.

 

I wonder if there was no EU a few years ago the 100+ Million on the grimethorpe and dearne regen would have been funded by Gov. Same applies for Cardiff and S. Wales

 

I'll try keep this short but there's a lot of points to be made that require a lot more detail.

From the waffle there:

. You've seen the rise of nationalism across Europe
. Your answer to the growing rise in far-right nationalism is to join them (Out of fear it seems?)
. Putin is a threat due to his influence on the Eastern countries of Europe

'Eurosceptics' as the media refer to them - they tend to be far-right figures who all have connections to Steve Bannon. Steve Bannon is a well known white supremacist from America.
Eurosceptic-parties tend to have these figures within the parties. These figures + media coverage are toxic.

So why are these types getting so much coverage in the media? Well, I'll leave that to you.

In terms of our country:

I don't know what else we would expect when all the media do is spread hate and division. Neo-liberalism and the americanization of our country is the real cause of our woes, not immigration.

PS. Italy's equivalent is Lega Nord.

 

The majority of leave voters will still either be blissfully unaware of any of this as they lack the intellect to realise; are too rich to care; or will laugh it off as ‘project fear’.

Project Fear is one of the most successful pieces of propaganda ever created. I have to acknowledge the leave campaign’s success there. They created one large umbrella to state that any, even if obviously true, negative point to leaving the eu was just a scare mongering lie. It worked a treat on very many, and continues to do so. There were of course some exaggerations and so on by the stay campaign, these served to prove project fear to be right - in all cases. A job well done, it pains me to say given the consequences.

As a father of three kids between 4 and 11, and as a bloke aged 36, the ‘fear’ I have is to what kind of future I can provide for my family and what prospects they will have as they grow up in a country which is handing the last scrap of power that the privileged right didn’t already control straight to them - and it is being done on the say so yes of the privileged right - but also by a lot of the very people who will suffer most because of it. ‘Coz we is tekkin back control and all’t foreigners are off ‘om.’

Let’s be clear, I know there are plenty of folk who voted to leave for genuinely informed reasons and this isn’t an attack on the whole leave vote. But for every one of those with reasoned arguments, some of whom eloquently post on here, I imagine there are at least seven or eight who voted out based predominately or even solely on immigration issues. In itself this would be fine, there are perfectly legitimate reasons to want to curb migration levels. But you don’t have to go far to realise the majority of these voters were of Enoch Powell and Stephen Yaxley-Lennon supporting ilk, some loudly and proudly, some more shy, quiet - but equally as abhorrent. A lot of people with issues with Eastern European’s but many, many more with issues with the Muslim population. Some of these issues founded in real causes - Islamic terrorism and so on, it’s not like there are no reasons for anyone to be uncomfortable, but the vote wasn’t one to protect, it was one to send ‘them’ back. A lot who thought that ‘they’ were only here because we were in the eu. That ‘they’ would be sent ‘home’. The fact that there are fourth and fifth generation British people of Pakistani, Indian (mainly non-Muslim but this is largely ignored) and Bangladeshi origin is lost on them. Not only are the vast majority of working age Asian origin Muslim persons born and bred in this country, the majority of their parents and some of their grandparents were. I honestly believe, and I reckon it is backed with enough anecdotal evidence, that if it had been spelt out to those who lacked the intellect to figure out for themselves that people born in this country, themselves quite often born to people who were also born in this country, cannot and will not be sent anywhere against their will - whether we are in the eu, out of it or even the 51st state of chuffing America - that the vote would not have gone the way it did. There was misinformation on both sides, or at least a lack of clarity, that is clear, but as much as there were reasons to go either way for different people, I’ll never be convinced that the vote wasn’t won by leave due to idiotic, ill-informed white supremists that the far right is stirring up more and more of.

As I say, I am worried what our country will turn into for people of working class origin who will always have to work for what they get. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve never been out of work for more than a couple of weeks. I have accrued transferable skills, I’m still hopeful I’ll always be able to find work. (I’m a self employed contractor in the financial sector at the moment, working for a bank, managing a complaints handling team - though with PPI complaints ending in August and packaged bank accounts already nearly done, complaint numbers will dwindle so I’m highly likely to be released, after over eight years, some point this year.) I will find work, but will I be able to live on the money? Will it be zero hours employment? Casual? Will it be a continuation of the self employed contractor route but on much lower rates - with IR35 legislation meaning I’ll pay an increased level of income tax - but the hmrc will also get less money as I’ll have to go under an umbrella to tax at source rather than keep my company, so they’ll gain some income tax, but lose all the vat and corporation tax? For those falsely reporting losses and so not paying any corporation tax I can see why IR35 makes sense - applying it to me and the thousands in my boat will actually cost them thousands a year per head though. For example I discussed with my accountant my umbrella options and for my 2017/18 income, had I been under an umbrella, paying full PAYE and NI at source, rather than using a ‘service company’, I would have brought home more than £9000 less in the year - but the lack of vat and corporation tax off setting the increased income tax and NI meant the HMRC would receive £6400 less as well! The bank wouldn’t have had to pay me vat, so they save, and the umbrella company would make, but me and the government lose out to the tune of thousands. Blind policy. Instead of IR35 they should instead have more robustly managed the expenses claiming system. I don’t try to wrongly claim expenses through the business to offset corp tax - I pay my way. They have used a sledgehammer to knock in a tack and whilst they will gain in some areas they will lose in others.

Forcing people out of self employment into employment - when there isn’t much out there and there are ever eroding rights for employees, another genius Tory policy. But giving tax relief to the very highest earners - of which I’m clearly not one.

Erosion of employees rights, reduced taxation, reduced services, an nhs sold to its highest bidder, poor quality roads, either increased cost of living or devaluation of the pound - or both - an increasingly further right leaning government unlikely to be usurped anytime soon, propped up by those even further right, and if there was a GE tomorrow they wouldn’t be voted out, a working class low wage population whom still believe in the majority that they were right to vote to leave the only thing which has provided any level of investment where they live, and the only thing protecting them from a right leaning government removing not only their rights of appeal but their right to sick pay, holiday pay, parental leave and so on. A lot of them who voted leave laughably not even being in employment - and gifting power and say so to people who will and have been reducing the welfare state bill (quite rightly to those who could work but won’t) - but not doing it just in that way, they are also reducing it to those who need it, the disabled, the workers who are paid woefully inadequately and rely on tax credit top-ups. They queue up embarrassed and angry at food banks - and blame the immigrants as the mess is their fault. Out means out.

The future doesn’t look too bright. But we get a blue passport. Made in France.

 

I'm not sure that's correct, I haven't actually heard Corbyn say there would be a referendum on a Labour deal, or that Labour would campaign for Remain under a Labour brokered deal...that defeats the object of negotiating anything. My understanding of a position that changes on an almost weekly basis, is that Labour would campaign for Remain under a Tory deal or a no deal option...but as to their own deal I'm unclear.

 

Erosion of workers rights, possible loss of NHS, increasing influence of Trump etc etc are the likely effects of a Tory government.
It doesn't follow that these things wont happen if we are still in the EU.

It is to my mind a mistake to link the two things - - if we're in the EU no major tory problems, if we're out then massive problems.

troff - do you not respect the rights of the electorate to vote as they as individuals see fit - do you yearn for a totalitarian state?

Because I voted to leave do you think I lack intellect. Do you really think the Remainers are cleverer than the leavers.

You shouldn't assume you know why people voted as they did because you have no idea any more than I know or want to know how you voted. (Immigration was not a factor - I have a West Indian (Grenadian) son-in-law - he also voted to Leave!

 

I think he'll probably have very little choice, otherwise he'll be finished.

 

I'd say probably not.

 

Actually we won’t get a blue passport because they are made in France printed in Poland but we won’t have an import agreement so won’t get them !!!

 

I'm not sure I agree with that stance. I think you could ask multiple people what Labours stance was, and probably come out with different perceptions, which suggests its not that clear cut.

There seems to be more shift to a referendum (but even in PMQ's and on Johnsons first appearance it is highly caveated with "in that particular case") but it feels through absolute gritted teeth and always never as far as the membership and PLP have wanted.

I think there is some fair suggestions with the LibDems. I'd fully expect more detail to be fleshed out in the coming weeks (especially as there is definite whiff of a GE in the offing) now a new Leader is in position.

So for me, Labour are still trying to appeal to leavers and remainers and failing to do so effectively but still support leaving the EU, but if they don't win a GE, they want a referendum, if they did want a GE, they want to renegotiate with the EU in some forms of "jobs first Brexit"... which I genuinely have no idea how you manage to deliver. Meanwhile Boris is spouting populist lies to try and get a GE majority at any cost (it was largely covered at the weekend that advisers to Corbyn were unprepared for Johnsons rhetoric... most odd as Johnson has been considered nailed on for months. And Lib Dems are against Brexit but haven't gone into specifics. But I don't think Greens, Plaid or SNP have done that as yet either.

Though I used to, I absolutely for certain won't be voting for Labour at the upcoming GE.