Brexit End Game.

Comes with being democratic ,
Still not the lies that labour aren’t supporting a second referendum that some are spouting as gospel ,

 

Its been the mother of all dragged over hot coals to actually get to any sort iof position that it would support a referendum. Despite the PLP and the membership by massive majorities supporting it and the conference resolution. and frankly, its still as clear as mud.

If the party can't state openly what they think is best for the country, then they won't get my vote. Its all pretty simple really.

Its no secret the split opening up with McDonnell and Starmer with Corbyn, Milne and McCluskey is because of Brexit reluctance.

 

Quite befitting as if you have no door and no keys, anyone from anywhere can enter ;-)

 

Labour have called for any deal to be put back to the people .
Only a labour govt can deliver this . the libs are a protest vote and a help to the Tories .

 

Agree with much of what you say there Taff but I can't see any deal in prospect the way Johnson and Gove are talking. They appear to have boxed themselves in. The key (if you don't want the backstop) is to progress right away to the future trade deal which replaces it. But we seem nowhere near even thinking about that. I'm afraid I wouldn't trust McCluskey as far as I could throw him!

 

Left wing Michael foot
Right wing maggie
Central midfield tony
Nobody plays political midfield anymore.
Political affiliation is like religion.
Thou shall follow God because thy father did.
It's dead, remember the whig party, sdlp, etc..
People who care about things, will flutter from 1 party to another, chill out, the old demographic have the future of the country sealed for the immediate future, but once they're gone it'll be a 50 way political hung parliament until the next generation come along.
In short it's no longer a 2 or 3 way choice anymore

 

*sigh*

if you listened to Corbyn on Johnsons first appearance in the commons, his delivery of such a commitment was highly caveated and typically ambiguous.

A Labour govt won't get close to a majority, nor would it get support of SNP, Green, Plaid and Lib Dem, so it certainly wouldn't be able to deliver anything.

 

No party would dare risk saying we are not accepting the will of the people.
Both Labour and Tories know they know they have to get rid of the Brexiteer and Lib Dem threat otherwise they will lose the election and the only way to do this is to get a Deal through
This can only happen if both Labour and Tory parties vote to leave.
The challenge for both parties is to come up with a Deal that satisfies enough of their MP's to get a deal through. And to get the deal through Johnson may well have to assure Corbyn that he will call a General Election after the Deal.

 

Yeah just like the polls said May would get a landslide against him if she went to a GE
The Lib dems on the other hand ??

 

I'm very confident there will be discussions between the two. Johnson and Cummings are in all out campaigning mode to align with the populists. They wont buddy up with Farage (like the ref) and they will try and bring over labour voters in favour of leave in the north.

There will be multiple detailed and uber expensive polling devices going on behind the scenes in the key marginals to tip a majority and i'd be very surprised if there weren't moves to deselect any remain leaning people to change parliamentary maths too.

Cummings will do anything to win, we've seen that already. His single aim now is to create the environment to win a soon to be called GE.

 

Corbyn will never be PM in my view. By all means do the maths to come to a majority when Scotland has abandoned labour and many of the remain vote that hoped labour would stop Brexit at the last GE will have shifted away again. That may mean they retain some seats where they got massive majorities (like my constituency) just because the swing would have to be huge. But they face trouble from both sides and that doesn't bode well for any party.

We'll see soon enough. But the maths just don't add up for him. Very popular with the left. Not popular at all with centrists or remainers.

 

The Maths failed last time and they will again , we can all have opinions on whether he’ll be PM or not the maths failed May and may spring another twist in the tail .
The Protest Parties May have a say in the Elections in regards taking votes from one party and empowering another in certain seats But at the end of the day there’s two party's in the running as far as Governing the country is concerned and which way Brexit goes
One things certain out if all the speculation is that if the Tories get in its Brexit deal or no deal.

 

You're right, the maths failed Corbyn spectacularly.

Funny you say protest parties. That's what labour feels like now. Feels like the 80s all over again, just that the tories are split too so the challenger parties will hopefully gain and neuter the old out of touch status quo parties.

If Labour or Tories got in (and I think neither will get a majority), it would be Brexit or Brexit. Both disastrous.

 

De-selection may lead to those de-selected standing as Independents and splitting their party vote.
Corbyn and Johnson know they have to neutralise the Lib Dems and Brexiteers by getting a Deal through BEFORE a General Election.
If Johnson includes enough of Corbyn's demands in any Deal then both Labour and Tory M.P.'s will vote it through. A promise of a General Election post Deal may convince Corbyn who at this moment has painted himself into a very tight corner.

 

Corbyn and Johnson will not align. We saw the outcry when May and Corbyn allegedly held talks. A GE will be called when the figures and timing stack up. Its up to labour to try and bring this govt down in its extremity. But i'm not confident they'll manage that right. The whole confidence motion in may was woefully done.

Johnson and Cummings aren't trying to neutralise, they are trying to demonise. Just like they did in the referendum.

 

How did the maths fail Corbyn?
He was miles behind in the polls , this denial of facts doesn’t do you any favours in that sentence.
Remember strong and stable and 30.% behind in the polls?
If you want to distort the facts that’s fine but they’d no substance when all the historical evidence is opposite .
Whether or not in YOUR opinion labour are a party of Protest only they are the only feasible alternative to no deal and don’t forget when labour were were in opposition in the eighties so were the others .

 

He failed because he was miles from winning enough seats to win a majority. That's usually how it works, or have the rules changed? Leader fights election, fails, stands down. Miliband did. Brown finally did. Corbyn didn't.

The facts are Corbyn didn't win the GE. Despite a hugely divided dreadful PM that refused to allow scrutiny and tried to bully her way through the campaign.

Yes, I understand the commissariat believe only true labour can bring true democracy. But despite YOUR view that anything besides left wing labour is a protest or tory, it doesn't mask that Labour are losing voters. Based on Euro elections, local council elections and the last by election. But if you don't like those facts and want to choose others to fit your fixed view, feel free.

 

If you think that neither Tory nor Labour would get a majority why do you think they would want a GE with the Lib Dems and Brexiteers in the background?
Labour may bring the Government down but it doesn't follow that that will lead to a Labour Government.
If there's a GE before any Deal I don't think Labour would win a majority.
If there's a GE after a Deal Labour have a better chance of winning -

 

I don't believe tories would get a majority, but that doesn't mean they won't. The tories are electioneering, if you've noticed daily announcements (knowing labour are silent over the recess) of policy and spurious spending aimed at their core vote and susceptible voters who could bolster a far right govt for a no or hard deal.

Labour have no chance. So why Corbyn keeps pushing for something that will erode his party, I've no idea. Delusion is the most likely outcome.

Labour won't support no deal. No deal won't get through commons. Mays old deal won't get through commons. No time to renegotiate a deal and far right in Tories wants no deal now. I very much believe (but political will can change very quickly) Cummings will engineer a will of the people vs the remainers and the EU before leaving the EU in Oct. He'll think jingoism and tubthumping will deliver a majority. I think he'll be found to be wrong.

But this govt is now set for a very hard deal or no deal at all. the only way they can get that is get the remainers to intervene, get the Eu to block... then cry and complain and pain them as the villains to try and get a majority to push through its will.

That's my view anyway. I don't think there is any room for compromise. Read up on Dominic Cummings. Pure evil.