So the Sovereignty defending Brexiteers. want to prevent erm, Sovereignty..

Such as?

So you must be appalled that an unelected PM has just circumvented democracy for personal gain to allow less scrutiny and to push through something which hasn't been given assent by sovereign democratic parliament?

 

For the first time since I was 18 I didn’t/couldn’t vote due to the fact that both sides were constantly feeding me/us a pack of lies backed up by “experts” who had their own dog in the race. If the vote was held again tomorrow, I would choose not to vote again for the exact same reasons.
British politics is in turmoil where the Tory party in its current state, with the rambling halfwits I see churning their out of touch rhubarb to the rest of us, are completely unopposed as there is no opposition party in place.
The significant number of people who protest voted for chuffing UKIP for Christ sake should have had their opinions and concerns at least looked at before Cameron called the vote.

 

The Dunning Kruger Referendum

 

Morning remainers, at work blasting today so phone in locker so I can’t play out til later. But can I just say I work in a quarry so it’s assumed that I read The Sun, really ??!’

 

I'm not arguing in favour of prorogation...but just to point out it's not quite as unprecedented as it is being suggested. I had no idea but apparently it gets proroged to some degree almost every year, although not controversially as it isn't being used from a political perspective like Johnson appears to be doing now....that though is also not without precedent, Clem Attlee's Labour Govt used it in 1948 in an issue of House of Lords power, and more recently, and more interestingly, considering how John Major was quick out of the blocks to condemn Johnson...Major himself used it to block the debate on 'cash for questions' in 1997.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-parliament-prorogation-explained

 

How long will my bolognese need proronging in the microwave?

 

Nope. Because the views you're coming out with are the ones trumpeted by The Sun.

So you do read it then?

 

You have only ever had (well, for the last 100 years or so), the right to vote for your elected representatives - either on a local (council) or national (MP) level, and for MEPs for 40 years and MSPs/AMs for 20 years in Wales or Scotland.

At best, you have to hope that at least 20,000 other voters in the same constituency vote in the same way as you do to select an MP.

 

What you really mean is let us have another referendum to reverse the result of the last referendum which you lost .
By all means press for a referendum when the result of the first as been implemented .
Thats democracy ,

 

Like we had through the European elections of MEPs to represent us. Yes.

Did you get to vote for our current PM?

 

There are still a lot of unknown variables that could come into play, but overall I think that's a reasonable assessment OKhat.
The final paragraph is exactly how I see it...Johnson does want a deal and May's deal is the only one available...Stephen Kinnock said this week that he would have voted for May's deal had he known that no deal was to be the likely outcome...and that there were now 50 like minded Labour MP's.
Johnson I'm sure will be aware that it failed by 58 votes last time, meaning he only needs to pick up 29 from Stephen Kinnock's group for it to pass.
Some people on both sides ( not you)are failing to realise that this is purely the Withdrawal agreement...as I see it it's a soft exit deal that should be at the very least borderline to those who would have preferred to remain...one of the beauties of voting in favour is that it cuts the ground from under the ERG, who I believe nothing will suit.
The sticking point remains the backstop of course, personally I would have signed the deal and taken the EU on trust ( that may be naive...I accept that potential criticism) but I do understand why some could not accept an arrangement that could only cease at the EU's satisfaction...as I've said before Mairead McGuinness has stated the answer is the free trade deal...which all parties will be working for in effect part 2 of the negotiations, the future relationship. My guess is that as you say Johnson will put the deal forward but does need something from the EU side...perhaps a third party arbitrator might be a fix?

 

I am still not convinced that Johnson is not playing a huge bluff. That he does not think that the EU negotiating team has not taken his threat of a “No Deal Brexit” seriously yet, and he has simply upped the stakes. Surely, no PM could walk away with no deal, with all the devastating effects that that would have on our economy. Then, this morning I thought, what possible reason could he have that a dyed in the wool Tory might have that would lead him to ignore everything and plough ahead regardless. Then I remembered Mrs Thatcher.


She was convinced that this country could generate all the electricity it needed without burning coal. She was convinced that the economy had to be modernised, and the loss of jobs in the coal industry was a price worth paying. After all, those jobs were all in Labour supporting areas anyway. What if Johnson see himself as a moderniser, a man cut from the same stuff as Mrs T. What then???


Well, if I wanted to modernise the economy, I would be willing to sacrifice jobs in low tech manufacturing. They are not the future and will be lost in the long term because the majority of those jobs will all go to lower wage cost countries anyway eventually. The WTO tariffs will mean that at a stroke, low tech manufacturing cannot export any more. Of course the home market will be protected because of those same tariffs, but it will mean job losses. But what is considered low tech manufacturing. Is, for example, car manufacturing considered low tech.


There are no British owned car manufacturers any more. If you were a foreign owned car manufacturer, currently manufacturing in the UK because it gives tariff free access to the European market, what would your reaction be to the UK leaving that market with no deal, and suddenly facing the same tariffs for goods as for cars that you produce anywhere else in the world. Would you be more relaxed about playing tariffs to import into the EU as a UK manufacturer, or into the UK as an EU manufacturer? Which direction has the biggest effect on your competitiveness, and ultimately your bottom line?


My worries are not new. I had them 3 years ago at the same prospect of a No Deal Brexit, but I thought that no PM would care so little about the British working man that he would throw all those jobs on the scrap heap. It seems I was wrong, but there again, the Tory’s do have previous.

 

Looked up that stuff on Trump yet?

 

If we have a referendum AFTER we've come out we will already have lost any chance of regaining the c...…………..

forget it I can't be ar**d.

 

They could easily sell us those products and vice versa because we had a framework of standards, legislation, a court of arbitration should problems arise and open borders.

 

I’m appalled that so many MPs obtained their privileged positions of power by promising to respect the referendum result and to implement Brexit. They are now doing the opposite, against their constituents’ wishes, having got the opportunity by false pretences.

Fortunately in our UK democracy they’ll be removed in the forthcoming election, and cannot continue to treat the public with contempt.

 

MEPs aren’t the legislators or the power within the EU. The European Parliament is a talking shop. A thin and increasingly transparent facade. And in any case, not accountable to the UK population by and large.

 

So you're appalled an unelected PM is denying democracy and ignoring sovereignty? I missed your answer.

 

They *could* be removed in the forthcoming election. You could also find that the Tories and Brexit Party (and UKIP) split the leave vote and a significantly pro-remain parliament is formed. More likely it will be split with no significant overall majority (like the country). Nobody will know until after the election if/when it comes.

BTW recent polls show that the split is roughly 54%/46% in favour of Remain. That has been consistent (and slowly increasing) for the last two years. Under 30s it is over 70% in favour. So while we may leave, it is only time before we apply to rejoin.

The Tories can't ignore the views of 28 million voters and continue to be elected.

 

What about all the British people who are affected by the result that weren’t allowed to vote?