No Deal Brexit

Which we could have had anyway!

 

Barnsley people who voted to leave have successfully redefined the term “turkeys voting for Christmas”.

When the s**t finally lands it sure won’t be on Boris’s head.

 

I think it was Attlee (could be wrong but someone from that era) who said the problem conservatism would have moving forward would be how to convince the working man (or woman) to support an ideology that is competely contrary to their own interests.

Enter Brexit.

I've heard people say that the Liberal elite want to stay in Europe. They went to private schools and university. Yet the same people support Johnson, rees mogg, farage and trump . You honestly could not make it up

 

If it wasn't for the tories selling off everything to foreign countries like our rail network, our mail services, central London, soon to be our nhs, we could have even made the blue passports in the uk rather than France where they will be made instead.

Take back control. Honestly

 

I am not usually one to enter a political debate, but, it would seem that some posters cannot put their points of view across without using silly words like CRETINS, IDIOTS and so forth, if you disagree with another person's views on the whole BREXIT question then fair enough, but I would venture that persons using these insults lack the nous and indeed the vocabulary to emphasise their point of view in proper manner.
The original poster gave a reasoned, well articulated viewpoint and then fell down later using the above remarks.
The vote in Barnsley wasn't just engaged by people of a certain demographic, but, people from every profession and Social standing any town or city has to offer, each vote just as viable and important as any other, to call your own townsfolk by derogatory names merely because they don't share your point of view is shameful and let's face it, immature.

 

IIRC, the blue passports are printed in Poland by a French company.

 

80% of GDP and just under that in jobs are already in Services. Service exports from the EU are worth in the region of £200bn per year (~10% of GDP) and this relies on our ability for people to move freely into the EU countries for meetings and to work on customer site, these in turn support other services within the UK economy (pubs, taxis, restaurants, hotels, etc).

One problem with services is that the high-tech future sees many of our current services being automated - call centres will probably be gone within a decade for example - and those people who work there typically have neither the training or ability to work in high-tech. Most people don't.

 

Don’t know what to think about this brexit. All it’s done is divide everybody. Positive notes it’s ended the toris, maybe all these employment agency’s might crap themselves and lead to secure jobs. Negative points it’s brought out a few racist remarks. Irish backstop could cause the troubles again. I don’t want anyone hardworking from abroad feel unwelcomed because that’s not the case. Our workers rights are buggered. Imagine letting boris run this country on his own. Jeez

 

Agree with all of the above posts... hard to dispute the facts. But unfortunately you're preaching to the converted.
We have to find a way to get this argument over to the leave camp in a way that doesn't come across as 'you're an idiot ... shut up'.

I might be wrong, but my belief is that the leave argument is essentially an emotional one and we are trying to counter that with logic. All we are doing is entrenching those emotions. I don't know how how the remain camp do it, but until they/we address the emotions this country will remain divided ... and we will probably end up leaving the EU.

The only way I can think of for now is to play the 'Class' card and portray the leave campaign as an 'Eton' privilege based campaign (which it is). Whilst I agree with the facts/scenarios people (me) have stated it does nothing to change anyone's mind.
We have to be a bit more thoughtful if we want to win the argument.

 

A question for those who don't want to leave without a Deal --

Why aren't you campaigning to leave With a Deal - that would negate leaving without a Deal.

Or is 'We mustn't leave without a Deal' a coded and duplicitous way of saying we mustn't leave at all?

 

where is the current deal? Teresa had one, your side said you didn't like, including the current prime minister who voted against it twice but didn't get sacked. if you had we would have left by now. id ask why didn't the leavers campaign for that deal.

 

Spot on.

 

Honestly, the deal that was struck was terrible from a personal prospective, but it was the best available with the red lines. In fact, it was probably better than initially expected given those red lines. But the red lines are terrible for my future career ambitions and cause a lot of disruption to the industry I work in. I think it will cause unnecessary disruption, and job losses. The "applying for settled status" scheme is just a punch in the face for anyone that come from the EU to contribute to the UK - why couldn't it just have been a "registration" scheme, where they give their details and the job is done? You don't get to treat my colleagues and friends like that.

If immediately after the referendum, the govt had said it was a close vote, and looked at something like EFTA+ or similar I (and probably most remainers) would have supported that. It would have got wide support and probably have been done by now. But the Tories hijacked a close vote and cheered on by the Mail and Express et al decided it was a mandate to be as disruptive as possible to the future relationship. The future was reduced to simple populist soundbites - "Citizens of Nowhere", "Crush The Saboteurs", "Will of the People", and worst of all "No Deal is Better than a Bad Deal", etc. The harder they pushed, the harder people pushed back and so now we are where we are.

I think revoking is the better option, but I also think that would upset a lot of people. I'm not going to state 17.4 million, because some have changed their minds, nearly 1 million have died (along with about 600,000 who voted remain) and over 2 million new voters have joined the electorate. I think that Leave was oversold and any difficulties understated and as the promised benefits have fallen away, we are left with "we won, get over it" and "democracy innit". The referendum was a terrible idea, with a terrible choice, poor franchise, poor campaigning and illegal overspending and probably foreign interference. I think that any Leave option that coalesces into written form instantly loses a big chunk of support from Leavers - I doubt any version would get more than 20% support of the electorate.

If we did revoke, it would need root and branch reform *of the UK*. It would need to look at the reasons for the vote, and address concerns in a positive way. It would also need us to be more committed members of the EU and we would need to look at the lies of the popular press and politicians alike.

So if there is an agreed deal, I think we should get a vote on it. I would vote for remain, but I respect that anyone has the right to vote for it - it *could* be a good deal, but chances are it will be worse than what we already have, but it would require government to be honest about the consequences. No Deal will probably kill people. No Deal will probably leave a lot of people without jobs. No Deal will probably lead to civil disorder and rioting.

Brexit was meant to heal the Tories, but it has destroyed most of their PMs since we joined and will consign them to history.

 

Let's turn this back to football. Can someone please write to the EFL and ask that we can play our last 4 league fixtures again as I do not like the results. Had we known more about the opposition strengths and weaknesses we would have played a different team, deployed different tactics etc.

The one sided argument within this thread is irrelevant and pre supposes we do nothing to offset the natural consequences of a divorce, with or without an agreement. I wasn't too happy with my divorce settlement but I got on with it, recovered from the immediate impact and am better off because of it.....that is very much how I see Britain leaving the EU.

 

ask Jeremy Corbyn

 

ask the ERG. Ask the side who had the most MP's. stop blaming others!!

 

I don't want to leave at all ... so not campaigning for a deal. That said I would take a deal over 'no deal' if that was the only choice. Nothing duplicitous about it.

 

I know you won't like this but I will be completely honest. I voted remain, so no if there is any chance we can remain I will not "respect the vote".

I'm not disrespecting the vote because I lost, I am doing so because I strongly believe leaving will damage my country, especially without a deal. I believe that the leave manifesto was built on huge lies such as 350m for the NHS etc etc- as an NHS worker I'm not standing for that! So whilst I would be relieved if we do manage to leave with some sort of deal over a no deal (so be it etc.), I'm certainly not going to go as far as campaign for one.

What leave voters wanting a deal wished for is for the EU to give us lots of attractive concessions. It isn't going to happen and was never going to happen, as the EU risks other states following suit by doing so. We never had any bargaining power. They do not need us to survive. It is embarrassing being a British European at the moment.

Just as I wouldn't expect the country to sit back and accept it and "respect the vote" if, say, some sort of dictator came into power, I'm going to support what I feel is best for the UK and will always do so.

 

I think first and foremost, no deal must be avoided. I think a lot of people can see that, and the people with most information can see that too. Those now in government told us we'd have a fantastic easy deal.

I don't think it's therefore a duplicitous thing to simply rule something out which so many say is damaging and would adversely impact the Uk and its partners.

There are many duplicitous things going on, but that's not one of them.

What this govt and the previous one under May did was close down option and try and evade scrutiny. May wanted her deal, Johnson wants no deal.

It would have been much easier 3 years ago to start dialogue in a more open way, explore the best options, get parliament and the people onside and then push forward once a consensus was formed.

I'm not sure that's viable now with so many entrenched views that are being whipped by the tories. The rift is getting wider and I think that's why the positions are hardening and less likely to be moved. I've had plenty of discussions where remain voters have said they could deal with leaving in a particular way. That's a strong contrast from some people who are arguing for the most extreme of leave options that wasn't put forward as an option at the referendum.

I think its therefore a clearer step for a remain voter to see the injustice of the current efforts by Johnson to shift views back and say no, you're not having a no deal, and rather than being reasonable, I'll back whatever is the route that stops Brexit altogether.

I don't know where we go from here. But I don't see any way of reconciliation for 20 years. Leave and remain will leave a permanent scar on this nation.

 

Anyone who thinks the government will spend as much money on this region as the EU have in the past, must be living in cloud cuckoo land.