O/T HS 2.

Despite reports to the contrary, it looks very much as though permission to proceed with
controversial plans to build the whole of HS 2 is in the throes of being granted.
Lot of folks in South Yorkshire adversely affected by this scheme, are not going to
be very happy with that news.


HS2: Government to give high-speed rail line the go-ahead https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51443421

 

Waste of time and money....

 

Now they have won some seats in the North, the Government have got to take measures to
level things up, but I agree, HS2 is a waste of money and it would appear, that they have
vastly underestimated the amounts of cash they will need to make available to bring it to
fruition. Been far too much emphasis on catering for people in the South for far too long.

 

The rail service up here is nothing short of disgusting. Instead of spending this money on routes in and out of London, it should be spent on connecting cities like Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester and Liverpool for example.

I can’t imagine what it must be like to get a train from the west to east of England.

 

I think the idea is that hs2 will free up existing lines for more trains, to make the local services less disgusting.
At one hell of a cost, and I don’t mean purely financial.

 

Better projects to spend 100 billion on at the minute - if we are considering cutting non necessary schemes from the books then this should be top of the list. Far more important things that need funding

 

Probably the most catastrophic waste of money the country will ever see....Hs2 have lied from moment one about the benefits and the cost and they are still lying today.
From our point of view in South Yorkshire it delivers nothing....purely destruction not even a f****** stop between Derbyshire and Leeds....apart from a slow speed spur in an out of Sheffield...Thomas the Tank Engine in High Speed clothing.
Michael Byng....the guy fetched in to build a costing model for Crossrail has said the complete finished project will be £237 billion.

 

Trouble is there are quite a few folk in power up north who want it.
Personally I think it’s a total waste of money, there would be more benefit in opening some of the closed lines and improving local links

 

Will it meet up with the bridge from Scotland to Ireland, Johnson is to discuss this bridge this week. I kid you not.

 

I echo last of the comments above. It just seems to me I could ridiculous waste of money. I can’t see this level of investment would bring Proportionate benefits. The North doesn’t need to be much more connected to London really especially with the advent of Skype and video con to do business.

what we needs is connectivity from commuter towns to Leeds Sheffield & Manchester

There are far too many villages & towns in the north that are isolated. If they had a good connectivity to cities then this would surely stimulate employment prosperity and growth.

I commute to Leeds every day in the car. It is a 33 mile journey and takes an hour or more on the M62. I am lucky enough I have a car to make this journey but recognise that it is really bad for the environment....and slow.

There is a dormant train line in the town / village (askern) next to me that goes to Leeds. Investment in this would open up loads of opportunities for people living in that village at the moment have little or no connectivity to large cities and this there is evident deprivation and viscous circles of poverty.

This is just one minor example and I am sure there are loads more in surrounding Yorkshire towns

investment in HS2 just demonstrates how out of touch the government is with the issues facing the north and I can’t help but think there are ulterior motives at work

 

While we’re talking about bridges to NI, we’re not talking about working families relying on food banks and disabled people having their benefits slashed are we? We’re not talking about leaving the EU because of all those unelected bureaucrats while witnessing Dominic Cummings falling out with Johnson’s girlfriend over who should be in the next cabinet!
Democracy in action,,, well done Northern England

 

In fairness, I think the SY 'bypassing' may be set to change. There is talk that an additional stop ( several locations under review .Mexborough being one) is being considered.
As regards cost, you only have to look at the HS rail coverage on the continent to realise how far behind the UK is in public transportation. Playing 'catch-up' after years of chronic underinvestment in infrastructure doesn't come cheap whether it is trains, buses, trams, trolleybuses, NHS.
All Governments are to blame for this but it is a case of 'damned if you do-damned if you don't' Whether or not the HS2 Long term is good or bad, I do not have sufficient knowledge to comment but redressing the North South imbalance is imperative. Hopefully HS2 will relieve , not only pressure on the existing rail network in the North, but also alleviate the overcrowding in London and the SE.

EDIT: BUt doesnt that 237bn figure include the Midland and Northern powerhouse upgrade new rolling stock/feeder, lines etc and not just HS2 currently a separate unbudgeted project? SO the figure is not comparable to the current latest figure and tbf is reported under the 'Stop HS2' banner

 

For me HS2 is outdated technology anyway. Or will be by the time it is finished.

The wait calculation suggests that as technology is continuing to increase meaning new technology for faster transport is being developed then if you set off now towards the nearest star you would be overtaken mid journey by someone who sets off in 20 years.

Modifying that for journeys on earth I believe that the length of time it will take to build and the extremely small time savings it provides suggests that by the time it's finished technology will be there that means you can get there quicker.

In fact we already can. Flight. Without all the waiting around I can fly from Donny to London much quicker than HS2 proposes and aviation technology is progressing much quicker than rail technology so I would suggest that within the next 15 years when HS2 should be ready planes will be quicker, cheaper, more environmentally friendly and requiring much shorter runways.

 

I thought the new plans for HS2 actually involved using existing lines which puts more pressure on them rather than taking it off

 

Stupid idea IMO. Spend money improving the cr@p train system we have currently instead of funding a new overpriced one. And then give what is left to the NHS and other emergency services that are massively underfunded

 

Can someone tell me please when this 'investment' will make a return on it?

I thought not - IMHO this project will continue to eat money for what? to shorten a journey by a few minutes ...... crazy! As people have already explained far better projects to spend this money on.

 

There is a video I saw on this which (if true) might answer a few questions posted here. I'll try to dig it out and post it.

 

HS2 typifies the attitude of the ruling classes in the UK; don't bother with the ordinary local stuff that people actually use and are clearly not fit for purpose but spend billions on a super-duper high-tech white elephant that ultimately will benefit hardly anyone. Probably the best example of this (before HS2) is the Humber bridge.....

 

There is/was a perfectly good rail link between the east and the west, it 's called the Woodhead line.
I know that the tunnels are now used for other things but if you want an immediate solution then spend a fraction of the hs2 money on that and straight away you'd get lots of road traffic on to rail. Develop the line at both ends and there you go.
Too simple.
Instead they have been talking about making new tunnels for road traffic under the Pennines.
I don't understand the thinking sometimes.

 

When people talk about 'cost' of Government /public spend when it comes to major infrastructure projects (as just one example) do they deduct the amount that returns to the treasury in the money 'merry go round' ?
I think someone once calculated that every pound spent resulted in over 95% of the money being returned to Govt in the form of income tax on employees for all aspects,daily items chargeable to VAT bought by said employees, plus suppliers project design etc,plus NI, VAT, Corporation tax on suppliers, import duties on raw materials etc. etc. The only real losses stem from when work contracts/materials etc are outsourced to companies owned abroad. Even the major consideration of compensation for compulsory purchase finds its way back into the treasury coffers for the same reasons.
The real 'cost', unless the money merry-go-round is taken into account, is, I suspect, therefore, a fraction of the quoted figures as is the case with all projects like Crossrail/HS2 NHS infrastructure spend (unless there is heavy involvement from foreign owned companies.)

For the above it distorts the benefits of outsourcing abroad as a lower quote means 'leakage' of any returns to the treasury via the taxes on UK based companies.

Does anyone on this board have any knowledge/experience of how projects in Government are costed and if the above considerations are included in the headline figure?
Just curious.