Interesting the difference in attitudes

So I asked "OK go on then.Go on What have you 'activated'? Protesting and complaining about a particular individual or political party rather than fcussing on specific policies achieves nothing. You fall into the category of one of those 'protesters' who believes if Mr X says something then it is automatically wrong and if Mr Y says something it must be right. You are right about one thing, you are a follower as protest without offering alternative solutions that are achievable, or at the very least giving tangible reasons why something is wrong or how it can be improved."

And the above was your response. So you still haven't answered the question. What HAVE you achieved through activism. Very little I suspect. Ironic that you call me out for "slagging someone off in every post (which is not even true) whilst constantly spouting bile against the Conservatives and KJohnson without having a clue what you would do if someone suddenly gave you the keys to No10 and say... "OK you are in charge"

I think you would quickly find it was you "who hasn't a clue". I am amazed that you still believe Momentum (now there is an oxymoron) still has a credible plan and that they (and you) alone are the only intelligent people in the UK and everyone else is either an idiot, brainwashed or has the temerity to question your ideology. Fortunately, many voted for the lesser of 2 evils at the last election.

 

Greenham Common
Wapping ,
Orgreave ,
Miners Campaign Group
Campaign for jailed and sacked miners. ,
Anti Apartheid Rallies London, Sheffield ,
just a few from top of my head I’m more into leafleting nowadays but limited with that with my health .
You sit there putting bile on here from afar knowing nothing spewing hatred about people you know nothing about your a sad hate filled person who verifys nothing keep your hate over there .

 

That's your territory.

Excellent. But then...

This is just nonsensical rubbish. On any given day before this struck, with the NHS working flat out there was a shortage of 43k nursing posts.

Are you seriously telling me that despite the severity of this situation that those staff would not be beneficial in this crisis? Or maybe I'm imagining them asking aged and retired NHS staff to risk their lives and return to help out?

Replace the Italian health service, in Italy with the NHS. Which would be likely to perform better under the same circumstances? There's different levels of "we're ******" you know!

Nobody has suggested there should be enough spare capacity. The simple point is that a 12 year old could grasp is that the quality of care offered in an emergency is substantially reduced when your Healthcare system is consistently underfunded on a day to day level.

Erm, yeah that's the point of having hospital beds and having extra nurses to look after people. Otherwise you end up treating people in.....corridors.

The less you have the more you spread and thin the service out. I mean, WTF?

So glib... Some trusts are cancelling major operations to move staff on to covid wards because they don't have enough staff.

Again, if the government badly underfunds and understaffs the health service at 'normal periods' then having a serious epidemic makes it struggle even more. Nobody is asking for perfection under these circumstances.

More strawman arguments.

 

Yeah, it's not as if he campaigned for it or anything...

 

A bit rich coming from someone who responded to the argument that people being paid unemployment benefits etc should continue to sit around when the country is in crisis when there is work available by comparing it to sending people to Gulags.

You also fail to miss the points that however well staffed and equipped the NHS should have been it would still have been overwhelmed with the pandemic as wa the point about extra beds... i.e. however many beds we have they would have still been filled with non-Coronavirus patients at the time the Pandemic struck so the scenario would STILL likely have been patients on corridors. However much money is thrown at the NHS it woudl never be enough. AND I DO accept it has been severely underfunded but stating that the past has caused countless Coronavirus deaths is unsubstantiated and an insult to the hard work and dedication of all the Health workers.

 

Eh? Do critical care beds automatically fill up? If people realise there are some beds spare do they decide to go and wrap their car around a tree just to make sure all the beds are being used?

 

As stated in another thread. The standard reply when someone with half a brain criticises Johnson is....

"But...but....but...Corbyn".

It's hilarious. This has nothing to do with Corbyn. Labour lost the last G.E. What sane people are doing is pointing out the multitude of reasons why Johnson is currently on his arse. None of them have anything to do with Jeremy Corbyn.

 

It's an excellent idea. Should also include people who have retired. A fitness test determining what role they can take up. The houses of the retired people can then be used for those recovering from Covid-19 to convalesce. And any savings they have over a certain level to be absorbed back into the national economy to ensure the country does not go bankrupt.

 

Just to make it clear fom some who seem to let political ideology get in the way of logical argument
They have joined a positive thread where the OP contained a link to an article which highlighted young people prepared to undertake menial (but important) work during a time of national crisis.I contrasted them with some who prefer instead to stay on benefits (ignoring the fact that there are households with three generations that have never had a days work in their lives. There are very few but they DO exist!)
The thread was fine until the usual suspect...Marlon...decided, once again to make a personal comment and then his comrades kicked in, and turned it into a slanging match largely about the shortage of funding in the NHS!

To make it clear, someone then said the Govt was responsible for unnecessary Corona virus deaths due to cutbacks which were unsubstantiated.

I will make it simple...

Wher are the official reports of Covid patients in corridors being denied access to ventilators or ICU? Where are the reports of the number of people who have died from Covid 19 due to lack of access to ventilators? If they existed then I am sure certain media outlets would have been all over it.
Co-incidentally the Guardian has a report today this situation COULD occur in the near future if the rise in cases accelerates. That would suggest it has not yet happened.

 

What? Find me the quote where I said that!

So my comment was jokingly making fun of the fact that you, as a supporter of a free society, thought it OK to ship unemployed people in and physically make them pick fruit and veg (after you'd backed Brexit, from Italy).



You also fail to miss the points that however well staffed and equipped the NHS should have been it would still have been overwhelmed with the pandemic as wa the point about extra beds... i.e. however many beds we have they would have still been filled with non-Coronavirus patients at the time the Pandemic struck so the scenario would STILL likely have been patients on corridors. However much money is thrown at the NHS it woudl never be enough. AND I DO accept it has been severely underfunded but stating that the past has caused countless Coronavirus deaths is unsubstantiated and an insult to the hard work and dedication of all the Health workers.[/QUOTE]

Pathetic. The only person who believes that is you. I work with nurses who tell me otherwise. More staff = betters standard of care, even in an epidemic. To borrow a quote from yourself,

"Dont forget I live here".

 

Yawn!!

The simple point was there is a sizeable minority of young healthy adults who prefer not to work and consider themselves 'above that kind of work' but happily take their benefits . Incidentally many pensioners are working in the crisis taking up places in supermarkets etc. with current staff self-isolating etc. Clearly you prefer to make 'ageist' slurs rather than engage in sensible debate.

 

Could you point me in the direction of my ageist slurs? I can quote numerous that you have made. One in the post to which I'm replying: "The simple point was there is a sizeable minority of young healthy adults who prefer not to work and consider themselves 'above that kind of work'"

Do you not like my proposition? If not, why not? Are you one of those, to quote you again, "who consider doing menial, low paid work somehow beneath them"?

 

Pathetic. The only person who believes that is you. I work with nurses who tell me otherwise. More staff = betters standard of care, even in an epidemic. To borrow a quote from yourself,

"Dont forget I live here".[/QUOTE]

See..... even now you can't help yourself. You cannot resist making every debate you engage in personal, and resort to insults and sarcasm. (Noted by others btw)
Obviously nurses as anyone in a high pressure demanding role want limitless resources in equipment and staffing but money isnt a bottomless pit. More staff/resources = 'better care' is self evident but you still haven't evidenced the claims that people have died unneccesarily from Covid from lack of access to vital equipment i.e. ventilators.
AGAIN!! I am NOT denying the NHS has been underfunded and so this outbreak is much harder to cope with, in part but this comes back to attitudes amongst some of the population who emphasise personal 'rights' over responsibilty and blame everyone and everything for their own shortcomings. Notwithstanding there are a whole number of issues regarding tax evasion from individuals, Corporates etc. and the balance of wealth that starve the UK economy of resources for Social welfare but that is a whole separate discussion)
There are a significant number who moan about their lack of opportunity but expect everything to be given to them. Contrast those, not just with the people in the clip in the OP, but with foreign workers willing to travel to another country to do the work. There were also reports that farmers often preferred foreign workers to UIK ones on the same wage as their productivity and output was higher.

Shock horror!! ....Suggesting unemployed single people, in a time when there are huge enforced layoffs , work coerced into travelling to somewhere in the UK and given free board & lodgings, food and a wage (more than the benefits they are receiving) for a few months!!! That makes me a modern day Stalin apparently. As some of the initial posts said, a few years ago people like students treated farm work as a holiday.

 

Take note Marlon, Nero here would have the unemployed chain ganged in the fields to replace the fruit and veg pickers he sent home after voting for Brexit and the Tory party, all whilst sipping a glass of red from the front porch of his Italian home in the country.

 

Yeah you could do, but suspect if it went that far very few would buy property, at least that would deal with ridiculous house prices though.

 

Thanks for that. I didnt realise that but as the saying goes an army marches on its stomach and getting a harvest in would be important.

 

Go on then, I'll take this one. Where are those numbers coming from?

I know me a lot more 'retired on my final-salary pension at 55' types than I do '25 but unemployed'.

The 55 year olds still having 12 years of economic service to give, according to Priti Patel, while sitting on levels of pay & benefit no longer afforded to anyone who started work within the last ten years.

Think I know who reckons they're 'above that sort of thing'.

 

It's an excellent idea. Should also include people who have retired. A fitness test determining what role they can take up. The houses of the retired people can then be used for those recovering from Covid-19 to convalesce. And any savings they have over a certain level to be absorbed back into the national economy to ensure the country does not go bankrupt.

How stupid do you think I am? Clearly you think I must be!

Please provide "those numerous quotes". The reference to young healthy adults was in no way ageist but based on a) physically quite demanding and so better suited to young fit people b) in the present situation older people are in the higth risk category and advised to self isolate. Nevertheless they are not excluded automatically since many older people, some who may have worked in outdoor physica/lroles for most/all of their lives, are fit and active
The point was not 'forced' labour as in wartime conscription but coercing people on benefits to actually be productive. I thought the system already was that if a job is offered and turned down thenJ obseekers allowances etc benefits are withheld. That could surely be applied in a time of national emergency.
With the more extreme measures you suggest, you are targeting retired people (mainly elderly and therefore ageist) - somehow suggesting their property could be appropriated in their absence and taking their savings) Utterly preposterous and discriminatory against a certain age group. i.e. ageist. Fortunately, only a far left Govt would ever attempt such a thing and that is therefore never going to happen.

Finally, You clearly know nothing about me... At one time I was holding down two jobs one full time, one part time neither of which were particularly well paid or commensurate with my experience, qualifications or expertise, so NO, I do not consider myself above menial low paid work.

 

You're genuinely funny you're so lacking in self awareness

 

Ah the green eye raises its head! You do know that these then are company pension schemes (NOT the state pension) and employees paid a proporrtion of their salaries every month into the fund to pay for them and the emplyer also contributes. Final salary pension schemes became unaffordable* and very few if any exist now. Over the past few years Private pension schemes have become less generous and more expensive. Not all Public sector pensions are in deficit either
*This in part was because Gordon Brown raided pension funds and shortly after the deficit , surprise surprise, in many schemes, equalled the amount that GB had taken by taxing them. Some pension funds quickly amended their terms and have stayed in surplus e.g. Teachers .
In any case many retired on final salary schemes (certainly those retired at 50-60 often do take up part time employment, voluntary work and yes many have filled gaps as I said before doing shifts in supermarkets for regular staff in isolation. Like I said I am not demonising all younger unemployed and you should therefore not be demonising older retired who are not, or at least the ones you are referring to, by stating they are all causing a drain on the public funds or not responding to the crisis.
I suspect , although I may be wrong, feel free to tell me, that you are in the younger age bracket who believes the older generation are responsible for all the problems in society. If so you are like everyone who has gone before. We all go through that phase in our lives where we think our generation is far better than the one before. In some things that is true but not so much as many like to believe