Rishi Sunak

What I’m not seeing is why no one could see the bigger picture? Labour Remainers wanted to stay in the EU and get a Labour government and got jack all.

Were the eyes that misty from the tears shed over a referendum result 3 years ago that they couldn’t see we’d be leaving regardless under a Tory government?

Surely a strong leader should have grasped this, matched the Tory government with the Leave decision, aimed to get back the Brexit supporting traditional Labour voters who defected to UKIP and, for the last election, Tory, whilst sending the message to Remainers that we were going to be leaving the EU regardless and a vote for anyone other then Labour would be a vote for a Tory government?

If this happened and Brexit was taken out of the election equation, then the election could have been potentially won on the back of better policies and 10 years of Tory austerity.

I know from previous threads you are a Labour voter who wanted to remain, but if Labour had decided to promote a leave policy, would you have voted against them in order to stay in the EU even though you knew you were flogging a dead horse, would be leaving the EU anyway, and would be putting a Tory government back in to power to oversee Brexit that would probably be more beneficial to their own interests regardless of how that affected you or I?

 

you honestly believe the majority who voted leave are tories because polls by the likes of ashcroft say so?

the labour party thought this was the case and look where that got them.

What the labour party should have done is say we will honour the referendum (no clap trap about second referendums or the referendum was 'advisory' etc etc) , if they had done this i'm convinced they'd have stood a chance at the general election.The labour party vote was ripped apart in traditional labour areas simply because the labour party and its membership failed to grasp the strength of feeling from the working class (you know, the traditional working class tories lol),this stance along with a leader who was terrified of splitting the party in two was a recipe for disaster imo.Corbyn was under the cosh from the tory media, his weak stance only aided them.

Corbyn was elected by the membership even tho he'd been anti eu since the tories took us in, the membership should have took this on board . You dont elect a euro sceptic (hater?) then expect him change his opinion and/or steer the party in the opposite direction on the single biggest decision for 40 years. The eu elections from the noughties showed that the likes of ukip and the bnp were on the rise, this was not just because of a racist agenda it was because we kept getting promised a vote but were never offered one.

you can keep quoting polls forever and a day but the proof is there for all to see, the labour vote was ripped to shreds because of their stance on brexit,they took their traditional vote for granted because they also believe that the tory vote secured a leave vote.

unlike many labour voters (mainly those that voted remain) i do not see brexit as being a distant memory come the next general election, i honestly feel the tories have it in the bag,its worrying when areas that hate the tories then elect their mp.

 

It doesn’t make a scrap of difference.

For Labour to get elected on a Brexit stance would still require them to attract some Tory voters, can you imagine a soft enough Brexit that keeps remainers happy but still appeals to all Labour Brexiteers plus some Tories?

The bigger picture is that Brexit is simple and attracts everyone from hard Brexit to a Norway type deal, whereas remain is a single outlook.

Real life is complicated but ‘take back Control’ ‘Get Brexit done’ are attractive simple messages. I’m slightly uneasy that people who wanted us to leave want to blame those of us that didn’t for their decision. Enjoy it, take the victory, leave us alone.

It’s done now, we’ve left, we’ve got a few years to begin to see what that means and then we can elect a government for the best future we have available.

 

No
I’ve no idea what the rest says, but if that’s all you’ve taken from my posts it’s not worth it.

 

Exactly!
Not that all the labour vote wanted Brexit, it was split (actually in favour of remain whether you agree or not) so Remain or Leave they were going to lose a large proportion of their votes.

I can’t believe this still needs stating. Also can’t believe that in a post Brexit world any Brexiteers still care.

 

I think on reflection the Labour Party would have been better off backing Theresa May's deal. The EU said we weren't going to get anything better. Be interesting to see what DomBo and Co. can come up with. I don't particularly want Labour to win the next election either. This is the Tories 5hitfest, and I think they should be the ones to solve it.

 

And yet the original post was about Sunak! Part of the causation of the economic crash but the darling of the tories. I thought he was possibly the best of a bad bunch (ie less of a liar) but then he spoils it for me with his quick defence (like his mates) of the lying Cummings.

 

you spend too much time assuming others think like yourself bud..brexit supporters like myself would prefer a labour government over a tory government,thats why we care

You say that leave or remain the labour party stance was going to cost them a large proportion of their votes, maybe so, but given that many areas that were strongly in favour of leave were indeed labour areas, then,imo, it was stupid to seemingly support the opposite,to starting going on about second referendums and 'advisory' referendums was political suicide, i'll bet Bojo couldnt believe his luck, 6 years of austerity should have given the labour party the perfect platform for a election campaign...

this labour vote that was in favour of remain,is this the labour party membership you refer to or the wider population? I seriously doubt it to be the latter seeing as the traditional labour areas voted leave and many of these these seats were then surrendered to the tories in the 'brexit' GE..



look at this image, do you honestly feel that the labour vote was in favour of remain?

 

There has actually been some interesting polling which suggested that people who actually do regularly go and vote Labour, as opposed to those living in traditional Labour areas or saying they generally support Labour ideas, voted more for Remain.

The bigger problem for Labour long term is that lots of people in the 'traditional Labour areas' therefore don't seem to be actually going to the polls as they used to, such is the tension between support in these areas and the metropolitan cities. It's hard to see Labour winning without one or the other, but the views of the two are increasingly divergent. It's also hard to see Labour winning with just one seat in Scotland.

 

Outside Scotland - those areas with higher Remain votes tended to be larger cities with universities (Manchester, London, Liverpool, Bristol, Newcastle, Leeds, etc) with higher levels of immigration. These areas also tend to be Labour strongholds. The more rural an area is, the more likely it is to be Tory or LibDem (generalization) and the more likely to vote Leave.

 

I don’t! I know there’s millions like you and have acknowledged that fact all through this thread.
But you’re ignoring there are even more millions of us.

And even if it wasn’t more, and there were equal numbers of us; then my point still stands. Labour going full on leave would have lost millions of voters they couldn’t replace.

Mentioned before, but Caroline Flint argued strongly for Brexit and campaigned as such at the last election. Despite the fact she was Labour and pro Brexit campaigning in a constituency that voted Leave by nearly 70% she still lost her seat because she wasn’t Brexit enough!

How Brexit would labour have had to be to stop thousands of her Labour voters voting for Farage and his chancers?

My MP lost over 5000 votes between 2015 and 2019 to Brexit supporting party’s, if in an ideal world he’d supported Brexit and kept them (we can assume he wouldn’t as per Caroline), he’d have lost his seat because most of the 16,000 he kept would have gone elsewhere.

Similar numbers happen in Barnsley as Donny.

Of the c70% of voters that voted leave in these strong Brexit constituencies, the vast majority of those went on to vote for Brexit supporting party’s but Labour still kept the seat! If Labour manage to keep all the Brexit party votes (clearly not the Tory ones) then the seats are lost.

Of course more people voted Leave than Remain, but you have to acknowledge that there’s a baseline of Tory voters in those figures before you start adding ‘some’ of the Labour voters.

Labour going Brexit only wins them the election if the Tory’s go remain.

 

rural,like barnsley central or sunderland?

i doubt lib dems voted leave scoff

the following is a quote off the bbc a week after the vote-

The Leave campaign triumphed right across England and Wales, winning in large northern cities including Sheffield, the Welsh valleys, across the Midlands including Birmingham, and the south and east of England.

the leave vote came first in 9 of the uk's regions while remain only managed 3..in the counting areas leave came first in 270 and remain managed 129


remain is dominated by scotland and northern ireland

 

caz flint is the perfect example of what i've argued before,the majority of voters vote for the party not the individual mp,how many idiots said i'm not voting for corbyn,even tho they live two hundred miles from his seat.
there were far more than 'some' labour voters who voted leave then deserted labour in the GE,
what you say is true about strong leave areas retaining their labour mp, but look how their majorities were slashed,some of them were lucky to hang onto their seats,so where did these labour voters go,? probably to brexit supporting parties as you rightly say,do you honestly think all these voters would have jumped ship if labour hadnt dithered about on second referendums and the like? i'm not saying they should have gone all out leave like the brexit party but to seemingly ignore the leave vote was political suicide..

the next GE will be interesting,thats for sure

 

No! And I never suggested otherwise. Some of them would have had their heads turned by a UKIP campaign saying Labour wouldn’t go for a proper Brexit, some would have voted Labour for Labours Brexit.

But me and all my family and most Labour voters here, would have gone elsewhere because whilst we live in a Brexit supporting constituency, we had no desire to Leave.

 

No, the press came to me, with this incredible information and asked me to publish it on BBS as there's always the one who thinks Sunak is upstanding and helps the working class, the sick and the disabled.

Think I might have fon him.

 

That’s what I can’t get over - you had no desire to leave, and that’s fair enough, that’s your view and your right, but when it got to the point that we would be leaving anyway under a Tory government, going elsewhere was basically like p!ssing into the wind, voting for a party that had less chance then Labour of getting in to power and therefore giving the Tories a helping hand.

Its like you wouldn’t be getting your way so have taken your vote home along with your ball.

Was not wanting to leave more important then trying to get a Labour government in to power for the next 5 years?

I get the feeling you believe I’m a Brexiteer from my previous posts, however I didn’t vote in the referendum (which probably makes me worse then people who voted leave in some people’s eyes) and voted Labour in the last GE.

Maybe Labour wouldn’t have got in at the last GE on a Brexit policy, but why not try, instead of the leadership being happy to lose the traditional supporter who wanted Brexit in order to appease those who wanted to Remain, even though the chance of that happening was next to zero at best?

At the end of the day it’s all irrelevant anyway, as they did sit on the fence not wanting to upset Remainers. I just don’t agree that it was an election they couldn’t win, and I can’t apportion the blame to the first time Tory voters who wanted Brexit for the how the country currently is like some on here can.

 

Policies not personalities every time!

Let me put it more succinctly. One party introduced the NHS, one party voted against its inception. One party introduced the minimum wage, one voted against its inception.

There are countless other examples.

 

To say any Party voted against it, is a huge generalisation, whilst the records show the Tories voted against the the Bill 21 times, it wasn’t about the inception but the structure proposed.

There was a lot of anti NHS around at time, Charities, Churches & even Doctors were against it.
Quote from Chairman of BHA at time

I have examined the Bill and it looks to me uncommonly like the first step, and a big one, to national socialism as practised in Germany.

The medical service there was early put under the dictatorship of a "medical fuhrer" The Bill will establish the minister for health in that capacity."

 

Within a couple of miles of Barnsley town centre you are in countryside. The Barnsley metropolitan area is a small central area with high population density and a large surrounding area with a relatively small population density - but most of the residents live outside central Barnsley. The population of Barnsley Central is 85000 (65000 voters) which includes as far as Royston, but the population of Barnsley metropolitan area is 230000

68% of Barnsley metropolitan area is green belt and 9% is national park - compared to 25% "Green" in London.

Compared to the cities, Barnsley is semi-rural - and from my one visit to Sunderland, I believe it is similar but slightly larger (277000 vs 230000) with Newcastle to the north in the same way as Sheffield/Rotherham are to the south of Barnsley.

From that, we don't know the breakdown of the referendum vote within Barnsley, but it could be that central town voted Remain (Barnsley Central - Labour) and the outlying areas voted Leave (Stocksbridge & Penistone is now Tory).

Compare that to Leeds, where most of the inhabitants live in the city or close suburbs and a comparitively small proportion live in Wetherby, Ottley or the other small surrounding towns/villages.

 

Read what you’ve written.
Compare it to mine. And ask yourself why you think I’m the one with a personal slant? I’ve remained neutral throughout, pointing out that whichever way Labour leapt on Brexit, the numbers didn’t add up to a win.

how come Brexiteer labour voters paint themselves as Traditional, and yet Remainers aren’t?
My dad was an ex miner, all my family vote Labour, all my in-laws vote Labour, we range from being unemployed, disabled and students, to highly paid professionals. We can probably all list Labour voters in our families all the way back to the 1st world war.

But in your myopic world we’re not ‘traditional labour voters’. WTAF???

If you’re genuinely a supporter of the Labour Party, give them the credit for having done their own polling and analysis to create a strategy. Rather than relying on the gut reaction of some bloke from Barnsley who believes he speaks for all traditional Labour voters