Workers that don’t have to go into an office are £480 billion better off.

Who built this straw man?

I’ve seen no one suggest it be mandatory to work from home. There appears to be a suggestion of the opposite though.

We should be able to agree that both those proposals are idiotic.

 

I don’t know how you can cling to this nonsense.

I’ve got colleagues living in 1 bed flats happily working from home, and I’ve told you this before. But you keep insisting only middle class people with spare rooms are able to work from home. It’s not true and whilst you cling to it, it completely undermines your stance.

 

FAO Donny-Tyke. Don’t know why it hadn’t highlighted your post .
Completely agree on that ,
can’t be bothered looking but there had been one or two posts suggesting that or at least taking my posts as blanket status quo pre Covid stance .
Which I’m not as I’ve written countless times about stupid commutes and the 9-5 agony shifts.
In fact my posts are mainly in favour of local commutes from close by villages etc with the option of working from home at times as well .
The fact penny pinching transport franchises who would rather see their shareholders coffers full than invest some money into more and better facilities doesn’t help .
There’s a compromise to be had no doubt .

 

Thing is Marlon, none of us who are going through this have suggested everyone has to work from home. A number of us have outlined our personal experience of it, giving the pro's and con's of it all. Particularly from our personal perspective, its impact on our lives etc. I'd be interested to know what you do for a living, what SuperTyke does, Tyketical Masterstroke and anyone else involved in this discussion. I sense you aren't office staff. In essence, nor am I in the grand scheme of things. My job takes me here, there, every bloódy where. But it is 'office-based' I suppose. And the last five months has shown that the 'office-based' element of my job can be done equally as well, sometimes better (no distractions) from home.

I'm not looking for an argument with anyone. I have sympathy for those who've been affected by the Pandemic. I have been myself. It has hit people hard in many ways. But this notion that office staff are killing the economy is utter drivel. Classic Dom. It isn't us sounding Tory. Not at all.

 

I’m not sure what you mean by this? That everyone should work in their local town? That people who’s employer has an office in the local town should not be working from homes except “at times”?

 

I worked from home occasionally pre Covid. and will maybe go back to the office ‘sometimes’ in the future. But my employer has realised that insisting we work ‘mostly’ in the office doesn’t really benefit them at all.

re public transport:
It’d be cheaper (slightly) for me to get the train to work, but whilst I have a choice of suitable direct trains into Sheffield, after 4 o’clock I need to change trains to get home. That ties me to a timetable and removes my flexibility to work the hours I need.

so I might get an urgent query at 4.00, which means that I’d not get home till half 6 (turning a 2hr commute into a 3hr commute).

I pay £5 a day to park in Sheffield (no benefit to the local economy) which requires quite a trek to the office, I could park closer (at anything up to £23 a day)

 

I’ve said this in my posts that stupid commutes and the rigid nine to five in fact a couple of posts above I’ve said it as well .
As I said I’m more about the local commutes and getting people out and about locally (town centre etc )
Posts saying that these businesses could go as there’s jobs in supermarkets etc I was responding to .
the Town Centre needs a social hub , for all the people that use it for leisure at the weekends eg meeting up for a pint before match it needs maintaining through the week and that’s usually a mixture of office workers , shoppers etc .
I’m not trying to impel the nightmare scenarios of pre Covid Commutes or even stopping some working from home , someone’s been advocating blanket stay at home or at least debating as I havnt been debating and answering my own points but I can’t be bothered looking back .
I’m retired now but I did commute regularly near Wombwell when working and used the local businesses , Chippy, Baked tatey, local butchers etc .

 

Fair enough but that’s not everybody’s scenario .
There’s more gets up on a morning catches the 8:00 o’clock buses /trains in to town goes into work goes onto town for lunch/ shopping: meet-up .
Change of scenery etc then catches five thirty -six o’clock bus / train home or stay in town to meet up have a drink with workmates .

 

But jobs will go. Sad but true - and other jobs will be created in their place.
100 years ago there would have been factories in the town centre and back to back housing too. The ‘traditional town centre’ you’re clinging to is 30 years old tops. In our youth, the town centre was a different place, so why should it not change again? What is it about the unique mix of the current town centre that’s so special?

the country is desperate for brown field housing space, and people living in a town centre (many working from home) is surely a better basis for a lively town centre than a thousand office workers nipping out for a sandwich at lunch.

 

No I’m talking about the folk that’s doing it now .
that’s commuting locally not that people should have to work locally .
That’s not what my posts have been about and their there to see I’m not going to keep repeating them .
If that’s what you think Ive been saying fair enough I’d say you havnt read them all especially my posts to others .

 

Traditional town centres are thousands of years old .
There’s always been a hub where traders and customers have come and where buisness has been done .

 

Then it won’t be a town centre will it ?
If there’s nothing for people to come it ceases to be a centre .

 

Ironically, some people won't be able to afford extras when working in the office, like trips into town on lunchbreaks (for clothes, lunch, coffee etc. etc.), because their budget doesn't allow due to the high costs of parking/trains/buses that you highlight above, often daily costs that go directly to private companies and don't help the local economy. Their money goes to those companies because they have no alternative but to pay it. Take that cost away and there is more disposable income for those people to put more money into the economy, either in the neighbourhoods/communities that they live, or in town/city centres on weekends/days they don't work. I can only speak from my own experience, and recognise for many this isn't the case; many have more disposable wages and happily buy lunch every day when in the office because they can afford to (this isn't a criticism of those people, but I work with individuals that do, good on them). But I do think tarnishing someone who has suddenly managed to save a bit of cash (perhaps for the first time?) by working from home with the 'I'm alright Jack' label (which popped up earlier in the thread) is plain wrong and presumptuous at best.

Clearly it also depends on area. Independent places in the neighbourhood where I live (Bedminster in Bristol) appear to be doing well, and the centre will obviously have taken a hit from the many office workers suddenly working from home - this is an issue and working from home permanently isn't viable in my opinion; but the city centre of Bristol wouldn't benefit from myself returning to the office Monday-Friday because I can't afford to buy lunch out and I take it with me, it would however benefit from others in my office. It does benefit from me on the weekends though, when I walk in and have a meal, or a pint, or buy the odd record etc. Bristol also has people living in and around the centre due to the layout so it also isn't the ghost town that it was in full lockdown. But as Loko said, central London has taken a hit and smaller towns have taken a hit and there's no quick fix. Balance is needed. It shouldn't be law to work in the office full-time, nor should it be law to work from home (in jobs that allow) permanently. But people shouldn't feel guilty at saving a bit extra on trains/buses/parking and spending it on other things, especially when the extra income likely goes to the local economy and helps businesses instead.

 

Fair enough mate - my circumstances are I’m an FD for what’s basically a manufacturing business unit within a bigger corporate FTSE company that’s better known in the service sector.

Before all this I commuted a three hour round trip two or three days a week to the offices in the factory unit, plus once a fortnight I’d do an overnighter in London to visit corporate head offices. Previously in my career I’ve had a job where I commuted weekly Mon-Fri to Germany and another where I was solely home based.

The lockdown has improved the work element of my quality of life immensely (it’s obviously destroyed my social life, like everyone else). I spend loads more time with the kids, I’m much less tired, in total I’m working less hours, it’s all good. I spend less money now because I’m earning less, as the corporate business dictates ‘voluntary’ pay cuts on a sliding scale for everyone earning above a certain cut off wage. So on a personal level I contribute less to the overall economy than I did before lockdown.

FWIW I think both the most enjoyable and most effective way of working is a blend between home working and occasional weekly/fortnightly co-locating to improve communication and engender better teamwork.

But ways of working isn’t my argument here, and I accept that a lot of us are arguing about different points. My concern is that, I think we all agree, city centre economic eco-systems - shops, cafes, bars, restaurants, hairdressers, corner shops etc etc are being hit hard and that’s leading to large scale job losses in those areas. Growing up in Barnsley we all know that when that happens localised in an area how hard that can hit the area and how it destroys not only livelihoods but stuff like mental health, social mobility, education etc etc etc.

Now, people can say that businesses will adapt and of course they will, but they’re conveniently forgetting that the economy has shrunk by 20% as a result of lockdown and that the end of furlough will see an absolute minimum of 1m increased unemployment. So a) it’s not all going to simply transfer wealth and employment from
one physical location to another and b) even if it was how does business moving help those people who are now redundant and stuck in negative city centre equity above a coffee shop with no footfall due to the changes

What’s my answer to this? I don’t have one. I agree it’s absolutely not the right thing to force people back to work pointlessly.

The correct answer, as it was for medical reasons, was not to have locked down at all in the first place, and this is just another example of the human cost of doing so. I bet Stockholm FC aren’t having this depressing existential debate on their BBS.

 

Yes it will, there’ll be shops, pubs, offices, entertainment etc. Just slightly more people living there and fewer people working there (or maybe just as many working, just doing it from their home- which ironically used to be an office).

 

But specifically, Donny town centre today is a very different place to the town centre of my youth, which was different to the town centre of the inter war years, which was different to the town centre of the 19th century.

You’re seeing a death, I’m seeing a natural evolution . You can’t stand in the way of progress.

IMO a bunch of people working from home will have less impact on Barnsley town centre than Meadowhall did, or online shopping, or the industrial revolution, or mass transportation, or the motor car.

Like I say, we can’t choose ‘now’ as the perfect time to stop progress.

 

You make some valid points and in some I agree with you it shouldn’t be compulsory either way .
You could save even more by buying the record after finishing work or in your lunch break then you’d save going into town on Saturday lol.
Kidding apart though I appreciate it’s your preference or predicament and obviously some will suit others better than others .
It what is certain we need a bustling social hub a Town/ Village /City centre .
That Centre needs maintaining and nourishing with whatever resources we can muster imo especially if there’s local businesses services and local people involved .
Some people use it at weekend some in week lots both it’s what it needs to keep going and ticking over .
I agree about housing in the centre but priority for me had to be the services etc . I don’t want to go into Town and have decide whether it’s McDs,
KFC, or Taco Bell etc we need the Blackburn’s Cafe or the Olive Cafe or the countless other locally owned cafes, sandwich shops Bars Restaurants and banks and everything else that’s in the town . Yes I can go to Cortonwood park up but it’s not the same .
When I’m in Town I can accidentally or arrange to meet up and se people friends , neighbours .
For this to work it’s needs people to use it sometimes we have to try harder to keep things because the alternatives are not good imo .
take away a big part of the midweek crowd and buisnesses , pubs cafes etc aren’t there at weekends or in fewer numbers .
Up to now there’s no alternatives if the government decided we could all work from home and buisnesses went all out that way the Centres would struggle imo .

 

I'm fortunate that the record store stays open till 6, so sometimes I'll walk into town after work (from home) and buy it midweek haha but I take your point. I usually go there and straight back whereas on a weekend I end up spending more in food markets/bars etc. This is all just personal choice though, not advocating either way. I definitely miss the office personally, the engagement with others, and the anticipation leading up to Friday. That's the biggest change (when I did spend!) personally, the Friday after-work drinks at the same bar (happened about once/twice a month). After a week in the office it was great to all leave together and let our hair down over a few bevs. We'd book a table and we'd be there until closing. We tried socials over zoom with the usual crowd in lockdown and it was crAp. Just not the same. Verging on awkward at times lol.

 

Blackburn’s cafe do delivery through Just Eat - so I encourage people working from home to use them. They’re very good.

Country Kitchen at Barugh Green.
Cafe Albert Street in town.

I’m sure I’m missing some - but they are all great.

Use them for breakfast or lunch.

Nobody is saying that the government should make companies move remote permanently. Merely that it’s already happened and has been happening for years now. Reversing it I don’t think will be possible to the extent that is required - so help needs to be found to help keep these businesses going.

 

Agreed
I know that things happen and naturally progress and different beasts naturally evolve from the same body and that but to do things at a stroke without thought out viable alternatives or speed the process up causes a lot of damage as we as a community well know .