As if things weren't bad enough..

I'd be fine with all of this, and the extra checks & delays at borders and all the numerous other things that will require a little/lot more effort, the price increases etc. if ..... someone could just point out to me some real concrete benefits we get from this other than meaningless phrases like 'take back control'. I don't see any real benefits to leaving other than emotional.

 

So the internal borders bill to make sure there's no border between NI and the rest of the UK hasn't even gone through yet and they're already coming up with other internal borders. You can't make this stuff up!

 

It was in response to the inaccurate claim it will be illegal to have a UK bank account if you don't live here which is incorrect . The single 'EU passporting for UK banks to provide services to people not UK resident ends if there is no deal 31st September. That is the part that would be 'illegal'. UK based based banks like Lloyds have decided to abandon UK expats as they consider it not cost effective to jump through hoops to negotiate individual deals with some EU countries. Large multinational banks like HSBC and Santander (whose parent companies are not UK based ) have a bigger customer base and also there is a possibility that a 'last man standing' approach will incentivise them and enable them to expand their base as many (like myself) will switch to any banks still offering UK banking to expats after transition period thus making it a viable option.
It is about banks prepared to go the extra mile to continue offering banking to non UK residents in the event of a no deal.

It is a sad indictment of Barclays and Lloyds that they have chosen to abandon their customers as it is too hard/deemed not cost effective to renegotiate passporting in certain countries.

As an expat, it is never plain sailing living abroad and many hurdles, like this, are overcome even before you settle in a new country. Nothing ventured nothing gained though and it is in the nature of people who retire abroad is to accept challenges and overcome them. For us the lifestyle here is worth the occasional sh*tstorm that blows up.

 

BUT surely these checks (security) your are referring to are all part of the current processes anyway so why are we not seeing lengthy delays? Smugglers may be more sophisticated since the seventies but so has technology, systems and specialised counter intelligence. If you are arguing post transition there will be more checks, that raises the question how sloppy are our border defences now given we are NOT part of Schengen and never have been. Free movement of goods and people may be changing but why is border security suddenly being thrown into the mix?

 

Moving seamlessly from "things were fine in the seventies so they'll be fine after Brexit" to "things were fine in the seventies so why aren't they going to be fine after Brexit?!" is peak Brexit.

 

Very enlightening, thanks

 

I hope (probably in vain) this is merely sabre rattling and an attempt to 'gee-up' the Haulage/logistics industry to get their act together in order so they complete paperwork in advance to avoid an internal border situation.

Unfortunately, it has been oft reported that no-one on either side has a clue ( EU, UK Govt or Hauliers), or at the very least agreed, what the proposed system is, or if it is even in place, so they are at a loss as what they are supposed to do. Gove appears to be 'passing the buck'.

Nevertheless, the EU are in the same position re Europoort Rotterdam, Calais (ferry and tunnel terminals), etc inasmuch as they export large amounts to UK much of which have limited shelf life so will wish to avoid long delays on either side of the channel. For that reason talk of vindictive and obstructive tactics threatening to make life difficult and introduce time delaying procedures on either side seems self-defeating, not to mention, unlikely. Any such restrictions would (will be??) be political not logical.

Not so much 'oven ready' but 'half baked'.

 

WTO rules mean that customs facilities will need to be in place on 1st January at the borders with France and Ireland (WTO MFN - "Lets Go WTO!"). If these aren't in place, then the UK are unable to charge tariffs on imports from *any* countries unless we have a FTA in place with the EU. This will lead to other countries "dumping" cheaper food and manufactured goods in the UK making our own industries uncompetitive. In the short-term, this would probably not lead to significant increases in import prices, but it would lead to a lot of job losses - possibly more than COVID but in different sectors.

Even if we have a FTA with the EU, these rules require that each shipment contains fully completed and accurate paperwork (to comply with the Non-tariff Barriers or NTBs and Rules of Origin). The level of paperwork required is significantly higher with any Western EU country, such as France, Holland, Germany or Ireland, since the early 1970s when we joined the EEC. The level of imports/exports to/from the EU has increased by a factor of several times over the period since the 1970s. The paperwork has not been published yet, and the UK is short of around half the 50,000 customs agents that were identified as being needed. We are in the middle of a pandemic, so recruitment and training of these customs officers is increasing unlikely. In addition, the customs system (CHIEF) was creaking at the seams before, its replacement (CDS) is late and can't be completed until the future trading situation is known. The other required computer systems aren't expected to be completed until November (and we all know the success rate of high-profile UK Government IT systems) and the "paperwork" has not been released to the hauliers yet. Smuggling is more prevalent - both people and illegal objects - and people voted to "take control of the borders".

But, those lorry parks in Kent aren't for trucks coming into the UK, they are for the trucks leaving the UK to go into France. France is in the Single Market and Customs Union. They will require full completed and accurate paperwork on each shipment, including a permit to deliver into the EU and this is expected to delay *every lorry* entering France by a few minutes. Every day over 7000 lorries crosses the Channel in what is effectively a free road after they pass the controls in Dover. Adding a 2 minute delay in Calais would fairly quickly block up the limited space in Calais, and Dover and hence the need to turn Ashford into a "Farrage Garage" lorry park. BTW the lorry park in Ashford is the first of five in Kent. If the delays at Dover are too much, shipments will start coming/going via Southampton, Portsmouth (so expect a Hampshire lorry border), Felixstowe (Suffolk), Holyhead (Anglesey) and Hull/Immingham (Easy Yorks/Lincs) and others.

We also have a major shortage of the heat-treated pallets needed to cross international borders that aren't needed while part of the SM/CU and only 7000? British lorries have been given permits to deliver into the EU - about 20% of those needed.

The big worry for many people is not just food, but we import all radioisotopes with short half-lives from the EU (Belgium) for scanning/radiotherapy along with the majority of insulin and other life-dependent drugs and the government can't see the problems even though people have been telling them for years.

BTW Gibraltar is currently considering putting a customs border with the UK so it can avoid the same problems.

 

Yes I agree with all of that.

I was trying to respond to DCMs post which seemed to be implying additional security was going to be a major factor in delays. (I may have got 2 and 2 adding up to 5)

In my earlier post (#18) on this thread I highlighted how it worked (giving examples based on personal experience pre Schengen, pre IT centralised systems, pre Eurotunnel and pre open borders within EU and pointed out we did not see rotting food, 7000 lorry tailbacks and multiple days of delays for exports and imports

 

At present we share intel with our EU partners, in January we won't be as it stands. Currently all tariffs on goods are agreed due to the internal market. We have trust, we check paper work for place of origin.

Brexit means all goods will come under new tariff etc we won't have legal relationships with the EU, and quite frankly we'll be targeted harder by smugglers. All internal reports state it'll be mayhem at the border.

All of the actions carried out are linked to our relationship with the EU. That's not a bad thing, it's ensured we've been able to concentrate on Intel lead and targeted crime and avoidance more than just turning out each vehicle.

 

Cant argue with that, except (see my post #18 ) in this thread it raises a legitimate question that a lot of these problems are created by excessive bureaucratic procedures introduced as a result of EU membership. Many are not physical practical obstructions that any logistics companies could not solve.

Whatever, the clock is ticking. Kent used to be the 'garden of England' and is heading towards being Kent..'the tarmac'ed Lorry park of England' !

 

I think you’re being very harsh on the government, they’ve only had 3 and half years to plan for this...

 

An addition; you mention our borders now and how they are run. We lost thousands of staff between 2012-2015. The department have failed to recruit adequate numbers and recruit, churn is in the negative. They tried to employ apprentices on the cheap and got told they weren't paying enough by 5k. The PCS union won that lengthy battle. In November last year the plan was to bring thousands of agency staff without any formal training pay them £18 a hour stick em in a uniform and make it look like we had plenty of staff.
Brexit was delayed the agency staff were still took on for 3 months (contracts were signed). More wasted tax payers money.
The border at present should be better but trust me it'll get worse.

 

Farage Garage

 

Out of interest which band was it? I might be a fan.

 

‘Here’

Trying to hide the fact that you’re a hypocrite that voted to deny others that which you took advantage of? You were so proud to tell everyone that you live in Italy previously, what happened? Think it would undermine your argument if people knew what a hypocrite you are?

 

Good in depth analysis - thanks for that. Presumably there will have to be provision for sizeable queues on the other side.Calais . All the more incentive for boith sides to stop sabre rattling.