More Politics (sorry): NIP

Apart from the fuc king actual anti Semitism that existed then and still exists now, and that Corbyn is utterly blind to. As are a lot of Labour supporters (I was happy to accept it was just anti Corbyn propaganda for years), but it’s very real and we should stop pretending it’s not.

 

You’re right there are; but that’s like saying homophobia isn’t bad cos mysoginy is more prevalent.

And Corbyns sneery attitude to it is what’s caused this. He absolutely refuses to see that there’s a problem. Because he’s ‘against all forms of racism*’.
*’All lives matter’ for the Islington lefty.

 

If you canvassed for Labour anywhere round here this was a very prevalent attitude.



What was never mentioned either way was AS.

There are some small pockets of AS within the left mainly because they conflate there justified criticism of Likud with more general critical of Judaism. This isn’t any more or less than society in general.

The idea that you can police every Twitter like from people who may or may not by Labour members is beyond ridiculous so I’d agree that whilst Corbyn was weak on it you have to acknowledge that a lot of it was just made up rubbish like Hodges 500 compliants where only 3 people were Labour members. It’s impossible to deal with that or take it seriously.

 

So much of this is on point.

 

Bloody Corbyn. Grrrrrr.

 

I don’t think anyone except a few cranks pretend there’s no anti-semitism. It’s quite obviously there.

But at the same time it has been weaponised against him by people within the Labour Party.

Corbyn has acknowledged it lots of times. He’d apologised on several occasions before the report even came out. As the report acknowledges things got better once he replaced Ian McNicol with Jennie Formby in 2018.

When you get Labour MP’s who all happen to have the same donors claiming they’re quitting the party because of anti-semitism & then walking into far better paid jobs you have to ask questions.

 

Perhaps Hartlepool would be a better barometer of Starmer's popularity if there wasn't a Corbynista remnant trying to chisel off part of the official Labour vote!

As things stand, going by the debate on this thread I can see this Left v Centre Left wrestling match continuing when Sunak succeeds second-term Boris in 2029 in this wonderful sovereign nation of tolerance and opportunity!

 

Voted for him every time, even though I believed him to be a bad leader and a fairly bad (small p) politician. He was principled (I like) and he was genuinely left (also like), but so is Dennis Skinner but I wouldn’t want him running me a bath.

But it’s irrelevant whether you’re on the left or right of any party, if your leader loses a general election, you need to take that seriously and change leader, to not do it after 2 losses is just lemming like.

It doesn’t even matter whether it’s down to a toxic press or just a bad choice of overcoat, once the electorate has had their say there’s no point flogging a dead horse.

 

The other day Danny Finkelstein was floating the idea that we are slowly moving in the direction of a directly elected (Presidential) prime minister. Not a bad idea, if you think about it. We could have voted Labour without having to vote for Putin's mate!

 

I genuinely haven’t a clue why you are telling me this. I’ve never once suggested Corbyn should still be leader. I never once suggested he should be full stop. But I got behind him, because I believed in him and his principles. But I’ve no interest in debating it any longer as it’s over a year since that era finished.

So tell me - will Labour win power with Starmer as leader?

 

Starmer is like a wet lettuce not a hope

 

the weaponisation is easy to see. Why did the BOD support the tories who cosy up to orban and his overt antisemite regime. Why do they support Johnson who has said and printed countless racist statements including a whole book where the central character is almost a parodic anti Semitic depiction of a Jew.

Why did the Mail, the Express and The Telegraph all with long history of anti Semitic from supporting Hitler to anti semite attacks on Miliband and his dad suddenly volte face to be defenders of Jews.

Why did Alistair Campbell who ‘masterminded’ an election campaign around an anti Semitic attack on Michael Howard suddenly become a warrior against injustice.

if you can’t answer these questions fairly it’s impossible to look at the extent of AS in Labour.

 

I responded directly to your post
Nowt ambiguous about it.

 

And your opinion on Labour's chance of winning a GE under Starmer?

 

At the moment, I'd say they're slim. But probably not any slimmer than they'd be under anyone. The tories seem to have mastered the art of populism, how to play the system and create divisions in their opponents.

 

I know this wasn't addressed to me, but i'll add my two pennoth if thats ok?

My personal feeling is that at this time, in this climate, with any leader in charge of Labour, a GE would be equally if not even more devastating than the last one.

I don't see how it's going to change either which is the most dispiriting thing.

I do think that it's a pretty thankless task for any Labour leader right now. Whichever side you sit, there is division to try and contend with. The government are getting away with lies, fraud, corruption and attacks on parts of its populace the likes of which I've not seen in my lifetime. And that is being supported by an ever more partisan media.

There is potential for some of the home nations to seek independence, and if that happened the tory grip firms itself further. I don't see how a path to a changed voting system would come about either. Given the majority that voted conservative and brexit would likely be part of a rejection of a change.

And on top of that, Starmer has been hamstrung by not being able to even have a party conference or local elections in a year of being leader. I'm not saying that would have done him any favours, but I think it might have allowed more scrutiny of a wider number.

There have also been examples of turnarounds in politics. Biden is the latest example. Nobody gave him a chance to become the preferred candidate. He's now president. Cameron was expected to lose badly after the coalition. He gained a majority. Corbyn was expected to get hammered in the first election he stood. He did much better than expected and clung on to have a second go.

Though I'm completely unimpressed with Starmer, I can understand the mountain he faces. I read a few days ago that to get a majority at the next GE, he would need to have a swing of something like 16%. That would require the hugest drop off of support for dePfeffel and his cabal and it largely swinging straight to Labour, such is the weakness of the LibDems. And thats before writing off Scotland.

I don't envy him and don't think he should be written off just yet, but I don't think he's helping himself either. And it's telling that both you and I would deeply question voting for him.

 

As per my first post here. I don’t see Labour winning a FPTP election whilst ever the SNP hold all of Scotland.

That fact holds whether Labour are led by a genius or a donkey.

As for what I think of Starmer, I’m a little disappointed that he’s not attacking the Tories harder, but the media are reporting him as fairly as they did Corbyn (so it’s almost a moot point - as whatever he does will be spun negatively).

But - he’s a much better ‘politician’ than Corbyn and as such he’s well aware that what’s happening now is unimportant, it’s all about the year up to the election, where he’ll be facing a completely different Tory PM.

 

Thank you for the detailed response.

I agree, it's not an easy task ahead.

I have never felt more represented by a party than I was with JC as leader. That's not to say I agreed with him on all fronts or that I felt he was great at all facets of the role. But for me as a human being, most of the Labour policies under Corbyn chimed with my own outlook on life and the world we live in. And I still to this day believe that most of the people in this country would rather live in that kind of world with those kinds of policies. Particularly the younger generation. But I don't think he was the right face to front a change to the left.

I don't feel represented by this current Labour and have no faith in Starmer whatsoever. So I withdrew my membership.

However, at a GE, I'd still vote Labour as there's nothing else.

It's a sad state of affairs quite honestly.

 

Snap. Me too.

that’s not to say he has any skill as a ‘leader’ though unfortunately. His Politics and U.K. political outlook were right up my street, but his politics and his international political outlook were soul destroying.

 

I think this is where Starmer has a really difficult job to do... Corbyns policies really chimed with you and they did for plenty of other people. Starmer isn't going to have that same resonance. Corbyn never did chime with me, not that I've ever considered myself an activist to closely align with any party in particular, though I voted Labour from the first opportunity til Corbyn, but Starmer hasn't won me round either because of his stance on Europe.

If it was a case that a vote for Starmer got rid of Johnson, I think we'd both do that, but we'd each be holding our nose in doing it.

And I think thats the saddest factor. That someone who wants to vote for a left leaning progressive socialist party hasn't got an obvious option, and a pro European centrist feels the same too.

Political votes now seem more about preventing something instead of being for something.